Dark Knight Megathread

[Beddict]

Also gonna drop my full opinion even though I agree with Bundy and that the devs are set in their ways.

1. What issue with Dark Knight do you have since 5.0?

• Delirium being a copy/paste of Inner Release sucks and I don't find it interesting to spam one button for five GCDs.
• Blood Weapon is jank because it lasts for less than the stated 10s, making it difficult to get the full 5 GCDs in, a stark difference compared to Delirium which lasts for ~11s.
• The Job feels slower compared to previous iterations because of the lack of Haste on Blood Weapon now. Going fast is fun, that's why MNKs are a bunch of crack addicts hopped up on Grease Lightning. Going fast good, going slow bad.
• Living Dead is still terrible and kills the DRK when it fades. It requires significantly more Healer resources compared to the other Tanks, such that even if it's used to invuln during a Tank swap, the DRK still needs to get fully healed while the rest just don't care once they've moved into the OT position.

2. Is there a viable solution to your problem? If so, write it down.

Blood Weapon is the easiest to fix, give DRK a 10% Haste and adjust the duration so that a DRK can get an appropriate amount of GCDs in, possibly the same 3k MP and 50 Blood, whatever, the goal is to go fast. Additionally, merge Skill Speed and Spell Speed so DRK can get the appropriate amount of GCDs in during AoE situations as well. Feels real bad that our Spells don't get that sweet 3k MP and 50 Blood.

For Living Dead, remove the whole "heal to full or the DRK dies" garbage. It's a blackhole for Healer resources, just let it time out after 10s and the DRK becomes vulnerable again, I'd say it's longer cooldown keeps it balanced against Holmgang.

For Delirium, much harder to say. Pressing Delirium to spam Bloodspiller is boring as hell, but other, smarter players have highlighted the issue with SB Delirium and the sheer amount of excess resources it generated. I think it'd be neat to see something similar to Banner of Honored Sacrifice from Bozja, but the HP drain would be guaranteed to piss off Healers so that's a bad idea, even if it's thematically appropriate to past iterations of DRK in the franchise.

Maybe give Delirium the following:

• Grant 10% Haste and Damage Up
• Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, and Souleater generate +10 Blood
• Bloodspiller and Quietus generate +1,000 MP
• Delirium drains MP while active
• Lasts for a maximum of 15s, ends early if MP bottoms out

This would make Delirium similar to the old Darkside, draining MP but providing bonus damage that players want to dump their oGCDs into. Players can maintain Delirium through their combos by doing their 123 to generate more Blood and spending that Blood to regain MP. If used during Blood Weapon, players will obviously be getting even more Blood and MP, making it far more likely they stay in Delirium for the maximum duration, and the two Haste buffs will stack to grant the DRK 15% Haste. Proper resource management would be necessary, to make sure players have a good amount of MP and Blood banked before Delirium so it doesn't end early. It might not play nice with DRK as the main Tank though, because using TBN would mean a huge chunk of your MP gone, but a workable solution to that would be the Dark Arts effect allowing the usage of an Empowered Bloodspiller/Quietus that restores double or triple MP under Delirium. Either way, it checks the boxes of going fast, encouraging resource management, interplay between Blood and MP, and providing a burst phase to the DRK through the bonus damage.

Despite all that, SE would absolutely toss the above in the garbage bin, likely deeming it too complex for players, especially when players at a low skill level are sitting there with a 4s Delirium saying the skill sucks so it's likely on the very low end of what SE would consider viable, if at all. Anyways, I just know that spamming a single button is uninteresting and does not make for engaging gameplay to me.

3. What did you like about previous iterations of Dark Knight?

In the past, I liked the aforementioned Haste on Blood Weapon, I felt it made the Job more interesting, standing out as the "fast" Tank compared to PLD and WAR. Resource management was also more interesting, making use of both MP and Blood to great effect in AoE situations. Spend MP on TBN, it breaks and generates 50 Blood that's used on a Dark Arts Quietus to restore a hell of a lot of MP, the MP is used on Dark Arts Abyssal Drain to restore HP, Salted Earth generates even more Blood for another Quietus into another TBN, so on so forth. The interplay between MP and Blood worked, and that's now gone since TBN just refunds MP through a "free" Edge of Shadow and does nothing for your Blood. Resource management wasn't perfect though because of the shitloads of MP DRK had which led to the whole Dark Arts spam, but I feel like MP cost adjustments could've brought that in line rather than nuking the whole gameplay system from orbit. Rather than tossing the problem in the bin, ask why it is a problem and then work out a solution from there. Feels like SE just gave up and didn't want to problem solve.

4. How did DRK capture your interest while playing FFXIV?

Again, the aforementioned speed and resource management. The animations and the Job Story also drew me in, God knows you'll find people preaching about the Story everywhere you look. TBN was also incredibly enticing with the big shield it provided, but nowadays it almost feels like a crutch because of how good it is compared to Sheltron and Heart of Stone.

Anyways, that's my two cents on DRK. I loved it for the speed, the resource management, and how Blood and MP worked together. I'll have to see the full list of tooltips for DRK once the Media Tour drops, but I ain't holding my breath when it comes to Delirium since they reduced it to 60s, likely to keep it in line with Inner Release. My pessimism isn't good, but damn is it difficult to stay optimistic.

[Sazuzaki]

For Delirium, much harder to say. Pressing Delirium to spam Bloodspiller is boring as hell, but other, smarter players have highlighted the issue with SB Delirium and the sheer amount of excess resources it generated. I think it'd be neat to see something similar to Banner of Honored Sacrifice from Bozja, but the HP drain would be guaranteed to piss off Healers so that's a bad idea, even if it's thematically appropriate to past iterations of DRK in the franchise.

Damn I would love old Darkside to come back in the form of Delirium. The constant MP management would be so much fun.

[Shurrikhan]

Damn I would love old Darkside to come back in the form of Delirium. The constant MP management would be so much fun.

While I enjoyed (the general idea behind) those MP management aspects, wouldn't this roughly amount to the old Riddle of Fire controversy? You'd essentially be reducing apm, through MP-spender casts, in favor of a flat damage buff into which all your oGCDs bankable to every n seconds (Darkside's cooldown) must be fit. The only "fun" part, so far as I can guess would be to not bottom out early on MP despite trying to maximize damage buff multiplicity alongside raid buffs.

On paper, that's... cool(?), I guess. But in practice? MP no longer equates to our capacity to deal any AoE whatsoever (or significant self-healing or full-value mitigation, etc.) and we no longer have the Darkside toggle to actually play around that mechanic over downtime. As a burst CD alone, would it even really remain "MP management"?

[Sazuzaki]

While I enjoyed (the general idea behind) those MP management aspects, wouldn't this roughly amount to the old Riddle of Fire controversy? You'd essentially be reducing apm, through MP-spender casts, in favor of a flat damage buff into which all your oGCDs bankable to every n seconds (Darkside's cooldown) must be fit. The only "fun" part, so far as I can guess would be to not bottom out early on MP despite trying to maximize damage buff multiplicity alongside raid buffs.

On paper, that's... cool(?), I guess. But in practice? MP no longer equates to our capacity to deal any AoE whatsoever (or significant self-healing or full-value mitigation, etc.) and we no longer have the Darkside toggle to actually play around that mechanic over downtime. As a burst CD alone, would it even really remain "MP management"?

Oh yeah, I was just imagining it in game and how much I would personally enjoy it. Of course, it would require some sort of revamp of the entire kit (which again, I would love but the job doesn't need another rework atm) so I don't think we'll ever really see it again. One can dream though.

[Shurrikhan]

Oh yeah, I was just imagining it in game and how much I would personally enjoy it. Of course, it would require some sort of revamp of the entire kit (which again, I would love but the job doesn't need another rework atm) so I don't think we'll ever really see it again. One can dream though.

I think we've long since gone into the era in which dreaming about the job is more fun and exciting than actually playing it, so that's quite understandable.

Feel free to use me for a sounding board for those larger pipedream reworks, btw.

[Anhra]

If i had any complains about Dark Knight, it would be the following Abilities even being a thing (warning: unpopular opinions incoming): The Blackest Night and Delirium.

I dont think i need to explain any reason why anyone sane would not dislike Delirium, as mentioned already, its just Inner Release in disguise and that thing belongs to either WAR or into the trash. Personally, i'd rather wish that Dark Knight had something more unique instead of this. If i had to make a suggestion, then i would say to replace it with something similar to Last Resort from FFXI, where the DRK gets +15% Damage up and -15% defense (can only be used below 50% HP and with a somewhat long cooldown, to balance it out a little) which lasts until either the DRK dies or goes back to over 50% HP.

as for Blackest Night, i think it isnt a Ability a Dark Knight should have. It's not that is by any means a bad Ability, but it is something that conflicts with the Ideology of the Job. Instead of it being a Shield, make it a Buff that can be used on a allied target for which the Dark Knight is able to take the full damage of the next hit once during its duration.

"But Anhra, a tank is suppoest to stay alive and not to get himself killed with his own Abilities!". I know, but hear me out on this. My point with those kind of ideas is, that Dark Knight's gimmick should be something like "gets stronger the closer to death it is and that Power comes at a prize". This could be backed up further by a trait called "Desperate Blows" for which the DRK gets increased dmg when low on HP at the cost of having a longer GCD on the basic Rotation (but also stronger MP/HP regen effects from Syphon Strike and Soul Eater).

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

"But Anhra, a tank is suppoest to stay alive and not to get himself killed with his own Abilities!". I know, but hear me out on this. My point with those kind of ideas is, that Dark Knight's gimmick should be something like "gets stronger the closer to death it is and that Power comes at a prize". This could be backed up further by a trait called "Desperate Blows" for which the DRK gets increased dmg when low on HP at the cost of having a longer GCD on the basic Rotation (but also stronger MP/HP regen effects from Syphon Strike and Soul Eater).

Hence why it's a terrible idea. Having your damage output tied to being closer to death when another role's job is seeking to keep you alive & healthy is asking for all types of ridiculous arguments to erupt, and just make healers despise playing with DRKs.

Not to mention the very nature of wanting lower HP will lead DRKs to want to MT or to intentionally eat AOEs to lower their health pool. For a tank, it's extremely bad design for any damage source to be tied to their HP. Even on a dps that doesn't have to actively absorb damage tying damage to HP would be a bad idea.

Not to mention how would you balance it? If the DRK's damage is balanced around being in this close to death state, you'd have a severely underpowered tank when its not, compared to 3 tanks that do just fine at any HP level. Balance its dps outside of this near death state and DRK will utterly annihilate the other 3 tanks dps wise when it suddenly comes in with huge damage boosts.

Trying to bring DRK's ideology from other FF games is pointless here. DRK is a tank in FF14; it's ideology in previous games simply doesn't work on a tank job.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

If i had any complains about Dark Knight, it would be the following Abilities even being a thing (warning: unpopular opinions incoming): The Blackest Night and Delirium.

What I do not like about The Blackest Night is the current if-broken bonus. I view a protective barrier that needs to be broken, for a offensive gain, as a liability and a bad design, while I think that a defensive action should not have a liability connection to offense.

My own thoughts on the if-broken bonus are that it should either be a further defensive buff, or a self-heal effect.

As for Anhra's idea, I think that.. at the least, to convert The Blackest Night from defensive to supportive, could be a idea of interest... While, as for Anhra's idea in and of itself, since Paladin has a "take damage intended for the target ally" ability, it is not as if that idea for The Blackest Night would not work...

In regard to for the Dark Knight to have a longer GCD than the normal 2.50... I would only agree with that if Dark Knight has a lot of good oGCD options, to the point of double-weave or single-weave between every GCD, since that would make double-weave more or ease; and the illusion of speed from oGCD weave, is also better than speed from faster GCD, any way...

For a example... 2.40 GCD and double-weave as a constant, between every single GCD, would create a illusion of speed that would be a approximate of around one attack every 0.80 seconds, to which GCD can never be brought that low, and that would be one-fifth of a second faster than literal DPS.
In the case of a GCD extension, the approximate speed, I think.. would only increase to around one attack every 0.90 seconds, which is still faster than GCD could ever go, and still faster than literal DPS, so I would be fine with it.

As a side-note.. I think that single-weave feels a bit too slow, except for Monk.

I think we've long since gone into the era in which dreaming about the job is more fun and exciting than actually playing it, so that's quite understandable.

...Last, I hate how true this is... I have far more fun to work on and put progress into my Dark Knight re-design/re-work pet project, than I ever did when I play the game as the Dark Knight.

[Shurrikhan]

I view a protective barrier that needs to be broken, for a offensive gain, as a liability and a bad design, while I think that a defensive action should not have a liability connection to offense.

Just some few cents:

Personally, I wouldn't mind that (and it might even seem uniquely interesting) if we just had more means by which to manipulate whether it'd break (or, more directly put, whether we'd get its reward) and/or some real reason to use it even when it wouldn't necessarily break (such as for an anti-knockback or anti-debuff when used against lighter damage).

That doesn't have to come from anything specific to DRK, even. That could easily come from role-wide changes towards less passive mitigation and much more frequent and manipulable instances of active mitigation. That could come from fight design. That could come from mechanics specifically being skill-shots that you wouldn't normally intercept an additional count of (but against which TBN on the first prevents the vulnerability debuff). Etc., etc.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Just some few cents:

Personally, I wouldn't mind that (and it might even seem uniquely interesting) if we just had more means by which to manipulate whether it'd break (or, more directly put, whether we'd get its reward) and/or some real reason to use it even when it wouldn't necessarily break (such as for an anti-knockback or anti-debuff when used against lighter damage).

That doesn't have to come from anything specific to DRK, even. That could easily come from role-wide changes towards less passive mitigation and much more frequent and manipulable instances of active mitigation. That could come from fight design. That could come from mechanics specifically being skill-shots that you wouldn't normally intercept an additional count of (but against which TBN on the first prevents the vulnerability debuff). Etc., etc.

It could just have better design, yeh... My first two thoughts would be a "when the duration expires" if not broken bonus, as well as a if-broken bonus, and then just pick which effect you intend every The Blackest Night cast, while as for a means to control when the Barrier breaks, I just think of the fact that many other versions of the FF Franchise Dark Knight had self-harm skills, of which the Dark Knight could use such a action to break the barrier their self...