Dark Knight Megathread

[Lyth]

It's effectively the same thing. You're using it as a pejorative without actually thinking about what it means. It's not like you've mastered the extreme limits of all these jobs and have come back unsatisfied in this one specific case.

[Archwizard]

It's not like you've mastered the extreme limits of all these jobs

Sure, but does only feedback from the people who have matter? Because that's an extreme minority of players you're describing.

I should think if anything, that barrier to entry gives more validity to arguments about "complexity".

Here, I'll give you something even better to aspire to than 'complex'. Try 'fun'. You can't brag about 'fun' to the 'community'. But you might actually catch yourself enjoying the game.

Funny, 'cuz last time someone said they didn't find the job fun, you spent multiple pages complaining about them not being specific enough.
... So please, tell us more about what "fun" means.

Because, frankly, all your metacommentary about how other people give feedback wrong can only serve to stifle discussion. Or swerve it, as is happening right now.

[Lyth]

I'm not the one making a case on job 'complexity'. You are.

And you are right on one thing, I am trying to alter opinion, to protect a job design that's important to me. I don't want your homebrew.

I enjoy DRK's gameplay as it is. I think that the overall gameplay could be enhanced if a few more GCDs were added for variety in an expansion update. If there was a plan to update all of the unique tank cooldowns (Camo/Thrill/DM/PoA), then I wouldn't mind seeing some additional versatility added to DM in fights where there isn't any significant magic damage. I think that it would be nice if Dark Missionary had something extra to offer to offset its more situational use than Shake/Veil. Am I going to argue those points right now? Absolutely not. I'm not greedy. If the balance shifts, then I'll make a decision and step in as needed.

[Archwizard]

I enjoy DRK's gameplay as it is.

And it would appear you're in the minority there, at least in this thread.

And to be clear, broad strokes, "I don't enjoy it as it is" isn't the same as "the job is unsalvageable and bad." It has good points worth preserving, just like it has low points to step away from.

But given you just spent several paragraphs discussing the connotations of "buzzwords" and how the devs react to them, I'm sure you're aware that "I enjoy it as is" can also be read as "change absolutely nothing at all."

[Lyth]

Not really. Before the 6.1 change to Living Dead and Blood Weapon, DRK was less represented in Savage than GNB. Now it's more represented (behind only WAR), and it's the most played tank in the current Ultimate. There are plenty of people who enjoy the job. They're just playing the game, rather than posting in here.

And yes, there is absolutely nothing that needs to be done at this very moment. Just sit back, relax, and enjoy the job for once now that it's in a very respectable position. There are ways to improve it, but we should be looking to how the job can be improved in 7.x, rather than trying to scupper the job and bring us back to square one again.

[Kalaam]

Guys you're getting off track, it is no use criticizing others opinions in such a way. You have a fundamental disagreement (one likes the current design, the others don't) just leave it at that.

[Shurrikhan]

Guys you're getting off track, it is no use criticizing others opinions in such a way. You have a fundamental disagreement (one likes the current design, the others don't) just leave it at that.

Only ever allowing two contrary positions to be "left at that" essentially just denies the less popular notion its ability to shape the discourse (and to a degree, therefore, the outcome). That's not as democratic an idea as it might first seem.

[Runeslayer]

Yeah, I don't honestly expect it to work in the current landscape of the game...quite frankly I'm really sick of buff alignments being a major deterrent/ limiting factor in how they design jobs. I understand they can't just outright sledgehammer delete them, but there's gotta be something better out there. If the simplification design philosophy keeps going the way it is, I'll probably end up jaded enough to advocate for full scorched earth.

But that's speculative at best, when really the fine print of it should be what we're looking at. That is, unless you're super against anything about the core rotation changing I see a lot of people really into some of these suggestions at face value, but know they can't fully go into supporting them because xyz reasons. Balance, synergy, redundancy, etc.

What this tells me is there is a demand for 'something to work towards' instead of hitting buttons in a certain way when they come off cooldown. You guys ever play monster hunter? Particularly the more recent titles? My mind turns to the weapon systems in those games.

[Eorzean_username]

I see a lot of people really into some of these suggestions at face value, but know they can't fully go into supporting them because xyz reasons. Balance, synergy, redundancy, etc.

Yeah, I'll be honest, it's exhausting.

Every cool idea that just "sounds fun" has to go through the wilting reality process of "Wait, how will this become tedious and disappointing in the 60s/120s Savage timing cycle?"

It's rough because that weird clockwork sense of precision is part of what gives FFXIV combat its flavor and satisfaction, but at the same time, it also feels like a padlock around the neck of combat design.

[Runeslayer]

Yeah that's exactly my feelings on the matter.
There's a consistent concept in my head that's rather vague, but it involves bending DRKs current identity to be more 'risk reward' focused.
What is the 'risk' and what is the 'reward'? I have no solid answer for this, but to me the idea of DRK being the tank that wagers tangible risks with tangible consequences on failure while the reward is satisfying for being competent is very appealing.

I draw the line at something like how darkside is currently, there is almost no way you can fuck up darkside and accidently run out of it if you're even okay at the job. I don't mean risks like that, more in the style of redmage in that if you build too much of one mana, the other is harder to build. The kind of risk where realistic mistakes lead to fair but recoverable consequence, and is always a present factor.

Right now as tanks, the idea that tanks risk ANYTHING is such a scary concept that some people shun it from the gate-- especially true when it comes to dark knight, who traditionally was a risk-reward class.