Dark Knight Megathread

[Shin96]

Funnily enough there were also a few threads asking what DRK's identity was compared to PLD and WAR lol.

When a job exchanges its identity to be accessible without assessing the risks of potentially losing its framework then you get DRK. Only the original designer knows what makes this job enjoyable not a different job designer.

Think they should take a good look of what was right about HW DRK and combine that with their current design philosophy. It's not going to be overly overwhelming I believe.

[Archwizard]

Think they should take a good look of what was right about HW DRK and combine that with their current design philosophy. It's not going to be overly overwhelming I believe.

Aaand personally I think they should be free to consider something not constrained by either precedented philosophy.
The current design philosophy is an oversimplified version of WAR, created as a result of the devs' own dissatisfaction with the complexity and direction of HW DRK -- in other words, both have flaws, and the best choice isn't necessarily a middle ground between the iterations, because after all DRK already existed in that middle ground for Stormblood and Shadowbringers. Limiting themselves only to a sliding scale between the past and present stifles potential creativity that the job desperately needs right now.

Now I'm not saying "scrap the job and start all over" -- they can reuse assets and familiar skills that already exist as they find the openings for them to their hearts' content. The 1-2-3 combo and staple tools like Grit and Shadow Wall aren't going anywhere.
But the priority shouldn't be on "HW did X better and Y worse" or "EW did Y better and X worse", it should be on "What makes DRK a choice for a tank in the first place?" and "What should DRK be able to do that no other tank could do the same or better?"

Yoshi-P said he wants DRK to feel like a magical tank. Alright. So where's the magic?
Because right now that's only reflected in "spell" tags that don't benefit from skill speed, and some unaspected damage here and there.
Oh, and Dark Mind. Talk about impractical identity tools.
Turn off the spell effects and you've got Cloud Strife sans melee LBs, not a particularly magical job.

[Kalaam]

Just copying something I said in another DRK thread, after a long absence:
The use of HP as a ressource is a great callback in PVP, and while for obvious reasons it would be absolute chaos to implement in PVE I think some ideas could be taken from it.
Either use MP instead, straightforward enough, or make Darkside a ressource you refill by spending MP (the same way you'll refill your HP with the generic healing skill in PvP). Some abilities will consume it, others will either refill it or give you MP back to refill it with other skills.
But having to actually manage a ressource feels good and I hope it comes back to PVE DRK.

[Oizen]

Just copying something I said in another DRK thread, after a long absence:
The use of HP as a ressource is a great callback in PVP, and while for obvious reasons it would be absolute chaos to implement in PVE I think some ideas could be taken from it.
Either use MP instead, straightforward enough, or make Darkside a ressource you refill by spending MP (the same way you'll refill your HP with the generic healing skill in PvP). Some abilities will consume it, others will either refill it or give you MP back to refill it with other skills.
But having to actually manage a ressource feels good and I hope it comes back to PVE DRK.

The reason DRK doesn't use MP in PVP is because the new heal spam system is tied to it, DRK would get a massive nerf if that had to compete with its actual skills.

[Kalaam]

The reason DRK doesn't use MP in PVP is because the new heal spam system is tied to it, DRK would get a massive nerf if that had to compete with its actual skills.

Yeah I know, i'm talking about PVE using MP instead.

[Shurrikhan]

or make Darkside a ressource you refill by spending MP (the same way you'll refill your HP with the generic healing skill in PvP). Some abilities will consume it, others will either refill it or give you MP back to refill it with other skills.
But having to actually manage a ressource feels good and I hope it comes back to PVE DRK.

...What difference would that make, though?

Presently, we refill our MP to use MP in ways that are themselves beneficial and capable of a unique degree of banking.

Having us instead refill our MP to fill another gauge to then get something of value, unless there are new and enjoyable gameplay loops therein you've simply yet to describe, isn't adding complexity so much as convolution.

Thus far, our only real example of that has been the Blood-Mana relationship of Blood Weapon and Quietus, back when Quietus could, via BW, generate MP and Blood per enemy struck and thus refund itself, offering BW further power in AoE.

In typical raids, though, the difference between, say, TBN awarding 50 Blood (essentially, the potency of Bloodspiller over average combo ppgcd) as compared to, in effect, MP (the potency of Edge of Shadow) was almost nil; in ST, the resource "interplay" was ultimately no deeper than now.

So, what would make this new gauge (or, this change to make our existing Darkside gauge newly worth showing on our screens) capable of resource interplay? If we're just doubling bar-watching without anything more to get out of it, that is not a positive improvement.

[Archwizard]

Just copying something I said in another DRK thread, after a long absence:
The use of HP as a ressource is a great callback in PVP, and while for obvious reasons it would be absolute chaos to implement in PVE I think some ideas could be taken from it.
Either use MP instead, straightforward enough, or make Darkside a ressource you refill by spending MP (the same way you'll refill your HP with the generic healing skill in PvP). Some abilities will consume it, others will either refill it or give you MP back to refill it with other skills.
But having to actually manage a ressource feels good and I hope it comes back to PVE DRK.

There is also a third option.
HP becomes a resource for an attack on charges, but MP skills replenish your HP. Essentially the same A to C path, but routed through B -- the extra step giving you some flexibility in your tanking style.

It creates a possibility for self-sustain through MP-based skills which DRK badly needs, offers options for risk-reward by gambling an amount of HP you think is worthwhile, and gives you a loop so you aren't just overhealing with Souleater when you're offtanking, pooling your MP to heal right after a big spender or during bursts.
And, crucially, isn't something any other tank can do or justify, given Dark Knight's extensive history.

And then when you are main-tanking, they can go a step further with the PVP callback and have Dark Arts make your next cast of the HP spender free. If the attack's on a fixed number of charges and gaining/spending Dark Arts isn't a resource shared with any other type of ability, you're not wasting any resources if the boss doesn't break your bubble, just more efficiently staying alive.

Plus, it means that we can bring in classic Darkness skills and take AD back off CD for an MP cost.

Then we just have to figure out what to do with the Blood Gauge.

[LoadedVirus]

I was thinking how bad it feels when you use TBN and it doesn't break (be it a healer shielded you, the mob didn't feel like attacking ect) so why not do this.

Night's Embrace: Heals target for the amount remaining on the barrier.

That would give the Dark Knight some much needed sustain while also allowing to heal others and makes TBN not breaking not feel as horrible.

[Kalaam]

There is also a third option.
HP becomes a resource for an attack on charges, but MP skills replenish your HP. Essentially the same A to C path, but routed through B -- the extra step giving you some flexibility in your tanking style.

It creates a possibility for self-sustain through MP-based skills which DRK badly needs, offers options for risk-reward by gambling an amount of HP you think is worthwhile, and gives you a loop so you aren't just overhealing with Souleater when you're offtanking, pooling your MP to heal right after a big spender or during bursts.
And, crucially, isn't something any other tank can do or justify, given Dark Knight's extensive history.

And then when you are main-tanking, they can go a step further with the PVP callback and have Dark Arts make your next cast of the HP spender free. If the attack's on a fixed number of charges and gaining/spending Dark Arts isn't a resource shared with any other type of ability, you're not wasting any resources if the boss doesn't break your bubble, just more efficiently staying alive.

Plus, it means that we can bring in classic Darkness skills and take AD back off CD for an MP cost.

Then we just have to figure out what to do with the Blood Gauge.

I think it'd work on a melee DPS but on a tank the risk of getting hit a bit too much when you're spending your HP is too high, and it'd feel bad to not attack to wait until it is safe to do so again. I think.
Darkside could just be a buff that drains MP continuously to give that sense of danger between it going down and our skills eating it away. Blood gauge I guess would be the main build/spend stuff that could restore big chunks of MP ?

I was thinking how bad it feels when you use TBN and it doesn't break (be it a healer shielded you, the mob didn't feel like attacking ect) so why not do this.

Night's Embrace: Heals target for the amount remaining on the barrier.

That would give the Dark Knight some much needed sustain while also allowing to heal others and makes TBN not breaking not feel as horrible.

True, though when you get healed while the shield is up, or use it preemptively the heal is then lost since you're already full health. Maybe making it a regen that lasts almost until the CD is up ?

[Danelo]

I, like most people, rarely get on here to thank or praise SE but thank you for patch 6.1 changes to DRK - took way too long but thank you all the same.

That being said, do you think there is any chance to lower CS/AD to 30 seconds? Take the damage off AD by half its current value or take it completely off and add a bleeding effect to c&s that instead of doing damage adds a regen?

I hate the argument but I’m going to use it anyway. Every other tank has a heal built into their combos, heals built into their cool new lvl 82 cds, and has substantial heals outside of that. Because this game is built on spike damage I’m asking for at least one method of controlling healing.

What about a “soul survivor” effect on oblation. It’s no secret it’s effect is underwhelming compared to the other 82s. Whatever HP is mitigated is returned after the effect. Too strong? Maybe but % can be tweaked. After all it’s only a 10% mitigation. It will rarely save you this is just to smooth out the damage spikes in between tbn. It maintains an element of risk versus reward for DRK since you can’t abuse it since it’s on a timer. I’m guessing that risk vs reward is the new theme since tbn appears to be staying as the only tank that keeps their short cd with a resource needed.

There’s two ideas, I’m only interested in doing 1 of them or something similar.