Dark Knight Megathread

[Shurrikhan]

....

There's a difference between critiquing a dev team over a disappointing product and globbing onto tinfoil backstory rumors, likely formed from thin air by a bored Redditor, to get one's disgust-kicks.

Hell, it takes more faith in the team's creativity to say that every issue with DRK has come specifically because the current devs wanted to piss on a former dev's job out of spite.

[Shin96]

There's a difference between critiquing a dev team over a disappointing product and globbing onto tinfoil backstory rumors, likely formed from thin air by a bored Redditor, to get one's disgust-kicks.

Hell, it takes more faith in the team's creativity to say that every issue with DRK has come specifically because the current devs wanted to piss on a former dev's job out of spite.

The latter exists but it hardly emerges from the crowd. Hate is very specific. If you keep disappointing people to the very core of their disappointment; hate you will get, and rightfully so.

Just the fact alone there's enough feedback to make solid choices benefitting the player goes to show you how little they care. Personal vendetta or not, it doesn't alleviate the position DRK is in right now.

However, I can't help but laugh how everything is supposed to be hate nowdays. Take some agency and grow up. Your feelings hardly matter in the grand scheme of things; results do however.

[Shurrikhan]

However, I can't help but laugh how everything is supposed to be hate nowdays. Take some agency and grow up. Your feelings hardly matter in the grand scheme of things; results do however.

Calling a rumor that "DRK is only bad because they're purposely sabotaging the game over interpersonal issues" less likely than that the dev team might just not be that great when it comes to designing distinct tanks now shows immaturity and a lack of agency? The comic-book villainizing of the current state of things, though, is mature and takes agency for oneself? Hmm.

That is Ativan levels of strawman and spin, both, Shin.

The word "hate" never once appeared in my post, and if the circumstances are, as you say, irrelevant (and yes, I agree, they are), what need would anyone have to explain away the result with ridiculous backstories like these?

[Shin96]

Really? Calling a rumor that "DRK is only bad because they're purposely sabotaging the game over interpersonal issues" less likely than that the dev team might just not be that great when it comes to designing distinct tanks now shows immaturity and a lack of agency? Hmm.

How about they are a multi millionaire company oozing with cash from every pocket to the point they can fund anything but choose not to. Even giving DRK a very much needed overhaul? Why did they say we won't go back to the 3.0 complexity then? DRK is very symptomatic and a remnant of that. They've been turning jobs into braindead faceroll experiences a child can play. No room for introspection and learning.

It really is just a lack of agency because everytime you call them out on their bullshit you have thousand drones coming to their defense. Nevermind if there is truth and validity in criticism leveled against the developers. Oh no! It's the company.

Wether that rumor is true or not, it only shows us that people seem to care more about feelings than actual results. What if our "hate" would've gotten us an awesome and amazing rework for DRK? Respect goes both ways.

[Shurrikhan]

...

To call out a comically terrible explanation is not to take a side. "Your explanation for the problem is comically ridiculous" =/= "The problem does not exist."

Look at Kalaam's posts across this thread and mine and you will see valid complaints and no blind defense of the product as given. "The devs are sabotaging each other in some weird sort of pissing contest!" however, almost certainly isn't a valid, let alone relevant, complaint.

Can we happily let the Reddit rumors die and get back to the actual issues instead of treating this weird funk like some kind of warpaint?

[Shin96]

To call out a comically terrible explanation is not to take a side. "Your explanation for the problem is comically ridiculous" =/= "The problem does not exist."

Look at Kalaam's posts across this thread and mine and you will valid complaints and no defense of the product as given. "The devs are sabotaging each other in some weird sort of pissing contest!" however, almost certainly isn't a valid, let alone relevant, complaint.

Can we happily let the Reddit rumors die and get back to the actual issues instead of treating this weird funk like some kind of warpaint?

Who are you then to disprove it? You call it ridiculous yet you offer no substantial evidence. Only good faith, which alas was crushed for 2 expansions. We are running out of good faith, I believe.

Calling a theory most likely false and hateful because it directs itself to the source of our discontent (i.e. the developers are completly ignoring DRK) is incorrect. It's criticism directed at the roots. It may be personal in nature but it still reserves its judgement towards the creators.

There's not more I can add to this. Either hold them accountable or spend the rest of your lives complaining in an echo chamber. Perhaps enhanced Unleash and enhanced Unmend 2 will change your mind? One can only hope.

[Crater]

I doubt they would add self-heal to any ogcds because they know we use them for damage. All the other tanks' self heals are regular CDs minus PLD. Best bet would be adding heal effects to oblation or tbn, blood weapon and delirium are iffy since they're more combat-oriented CDs. Heal on bloodweapon would be cool, but 60 seconds is a bit too long for a self heal ability. I think they just realized they are in a tight spot now. Arcane circle is an ability I wouldn't mind stealing.

The one area where Dark Knight actually doesn't have a case to be made for already being balanced in terms of "healing" is that it lacks a direct, non-rotational heal that isn't a part of its standard mitigation suite. Warrior has Equilibrium, Gunbreaker has Aurora, Paladin has Clemency, and Dark Knight doesn't really have anything. If you squint really hard you can kind of see where they meant for Abyssal Drain to fill that role, but it obviously failed at that job even before they merged it with CnS in your singletarget rotation, because AD is a rotational ability in AoE which constricts its use as a directed heal, and even when it was used in singletarget, the 200p you got from using it on one enemy was basically nothing.

I think it would be a reasonable ask for Abyssal Drain to be A) Completely decoupled from Carve and Spit, B) Removed from your standard AoE rotation, and C) Rebalanced to be a reasonable, usable self-heal in both singletarget and AoE, with an MP cost that makes it a modest DPS loss on use.

Something like:

A) Decoupled from Carve and Spit: No longer shares a cooldown, AD no longer restores MP on use.

B) Removed from your standard AoE rotation: Because you currently get 150 potency of AoE damage from AD, that potency should be added to Flood of Shadow to maintain your 'ideal' AoE DPS. Buff Flood from 160 to 190 potency (Sanity check: In AoE you generate about 15000 MP per minute, which is five uses of Flood, so a buff of 30 potency per Flood maintains the current level of maximum AoE damage, without making Flood a DPS gain over Edge on 2 targets.)

C) Remove AD from your standard rotation: Give it a 3000 MP cost, and make it deal 350 potency of damage to the first target, and 100 to any additional targets, healing you for 600 potency on the first target, and 100 potency for any additional targets. Change the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30s, 25s, or 20s.

- In singletarget AD would give you the option of replacing an Edge with AD for a 110 potency loss in exchange for a 600 potency heal.
- In two-target situations, AD would probably become your preferred MP spender, dealing 450 total potency to Edge's 460, but returning a 700 potency heal.
- In three-target situations, AD would fill the same role in relation to Flood, dealing 550 total potency to Flood's 570, but returning an 800 potency heal.
- In larger AoE situations, AD would generally be a DPS loss compared to Flood at 100 potency to Flood's 190 (except for the initial target, obviously), but would become a relatively powerful heal.
- For fewer than six targets, AD would heal more than it currently does (600+100n compared to 200n for n<=5), at exactly six targets the heal would be identical (600+100(6) vs 200(6)), and at larger pack sizes it would heal less (1300 to the current 1400, for 7 targets, for example). However, it would be held until you wanted to use it, to make the best use of it, and you could potentially use it more often than you can now.
- In singletarget, the self-healing would be somewhere between 1 and 1.5 casts of Aurora in total healing, depending on the cooldown, split up between 2-3 instances of 600p healing, with a 20-30s cooldown between them. This feels fair, considering that you would be losing 220-330 potency instead of getting it completely free.
- This has nothing to do with Dark Knight, but if this change were made then I feel like it would only be right to give Clemency an effect like "Your next cast of Holy Spirit or Holy Circle deals extra damage" to keep the DPS loss approximately fair.


While I'm definitely not in the camp that thinks there's some great DRK crisis when it comes to a self-heal, I do have to recognize that they are definitely missing a non-rotational heal that isn't coupled to their standard mitigation suite, and I could get behind something like this to give them a reasonable on-demand health bump in a way that doesn't warrant nerfing any of their existing skills to make room for incoming HP.

[Shurrikhan]

While I'm definitely not in the camp that thinks there's some great DRK crisis when it comes to a self-heal, I do have to recognize that they are definitely missing a non-rotational heal that isn't coupled to their standard mitigation suite, and I could get behind something like this to give them a reasonable on-demand health bump in a way that doesn't warrant nerfing any of their existing skills to make room for incoming HP.

This seems reasonable. I'd slightly prefer going more the Paladin / StB DRK route in making AD a more flexible, rather than Equilibrium-like, self-heal, and don't much see the need to move AD over to that effect (especially when Salted Earth could easily fill that role already if we felt it was truly necessary), but I wouldn't hate that direction, either.

_______________________

Separately:

Who are you then to disprove it?

Which generally holds the burden of proof, the simpler, more common explanation, or the likes of "no, it's all a conspiracy!" per the above rumor?

Calling a theory most likely false and hateful because it directs itself to the source of our discontent (i.e. the developers are completly ignoring DRK) is incorrect. It's criticism directed at the roots.

I call it most likely false because it's a needlessly convoluted explanation and because design issues resulting from intentional self-sabotage certainly seem less likely than design issues stemming from any other, more typical reason.

I've not called it hateful; you're again conflating or strawmanning.

Finally, why would you critique "the roots" through an explanation that you admit is irrelevant to the product, is unlikely (yes, until such time as you can prove that more problematic designs are consequent to vendettas than not, it is unlikely), and you have no actual knowledge of, rather than critiquing the actual product you are familiar with? That's like getting a bad steak and then yelling at the cook for having an affair (since who is anyone to say that's the less likely explanation in the wake of your righteous indignation) when the steak is right there and fully worth critique in and of itself. You don't need the random, "at the roots" tinfoil theories to give a valid complaint. To speak on about something you admit is irrelevant and you do not know the validity of is exactly how render your complaint invalid.

There's not more I can add to this. Either hold them accountable or spend the rest of your lives complaining in an echo chamber.

How about, again, looking at the product and making concrete suggestions instead of drowning them out by yelling pure frustration into walls as if feelings, alone, would drive results?

Perhaps enhanced Unleash and enhanced Unmend 2 will change your mind?

Right, because my critiques there were purely ironic? Enough strawmen.

[Shin96]

Which generally holds the burden of proof, the simpler, more common explanation, or the likes of "no, it's all a conspiracy!" per the above rumor?


I call it most likely false because it's a needlessly convoluted explanation and because design issues resulting from intentional self-sabotage certainly seem less likely than design issues stemming from any other, more typical reason.

I've not called it hateful; you're again conflating or strawmanning.

Finally, why would you critique "the roots" through an explanation that you admit is irrelevant to the product, is unlikely (yes, until such time as you can prove that more problematic designs are consequent to vendettas than not, it is unlikely), and you have no actual knowledge of, rather than critiquing the actual product you are familiar with? That's like getting a bad steak and then yelling at the cook for having an affair (since who is anyone to say that's the less likely explanation in the wake of your righteous indignation) when the steak is right there and fully worth critique in and of itself. You don't need the random, "at the roots" tinfoil theories to give a valid complaint. To speak on about something you admit is irrelevant and you do not know the validity of is exactly how render your complaint invalid.


How about, again, looking at the product and making concrete suggestions instead of drowning them out by yelling pure frustration into walls as if feelings, alone, would drive results?


Right, because my critiques there were purely ironic? Enough strawmen. [/HB]

Not going to read this anyway. To simplify my point:

Developers don't care. We give them feedback. Good.

Next expansion, DRK is severely lacking in self-sustain options and defense. They don't care. Oh yes, Living Dead still is absolute shite despite years of criticism from loyal fans.

Someone makes a theory which sounds ridiculous but it reveals the developers don't care. My initial assumption based on their absolute lack of actions taken for years.

Theory involves the developers in a way where it explains why they haven't taken any action. Sounds like a solid explanation to me. They still don't care.

In the end you look like someone in absolute denial, same with that other guy I quoted. You cannot even conceptualize the idea that perhaps these developers are complete hacks that ignore us for no good reason. DRK in 6.0 recevied no mentionable changes despite an increase in DPS. It's the equivalent of leaving construction work on hold for another 2 years.

What you think is irrelevant. For all your screeching of calling things conspiracies and this smug attitude, in the end you're just another customer with nothing to say. DRK will still be shit, nothing will change, and people still believe our words and feedback is taken seriously. Despite years of players making threads voicing their opinions in the most respectable attitude; nothing has changed. The hubris from these developers is astounding yet frustrating.

[Kalaam]

A theory doesn't prove anything. It suggests an explanation that must then be proven.
Ever heard of Halon's razor ? "Never attribute to malice what that which is adequately explained by stupidity/incompetence"

It is much more likely that the devs just don't know what to do with dark knight, or didn't have time to work on it, than for them to purposefully sabotage their own work to piss off someone who isn't even working with them anymore.

"Oh boy, my last colleague was a pain for (insert unknown reason), now that they have left I will make sure that the part of our group project they worked on becomes terrible !"

Here is another theory, that explains all:
The devs' dogs ate their homework with the dark knight updates in it, and they had to redo something from scratch in the last minute because they have terrible memory and couldn't remember what they did before.

It explains it all ! You don't believe me ? Prove me it's wrong then. Prove me that they didn't lose the actual EW Dark knight updates and forgot all about their competence and skills until the last minute.