Dark Knight Megathread

[Lyth]

TBN isn't 'problematic' in terms of the MP requirement. I know that there are players who want it to be completely foolproof to use, but I would much rather those players learn the damage patterns of the fight. It's not difficult to work around. It'll probably just end up becoming a flat 25% shield on a 25s recast with no MP cost attached, knowing how people are going on about this. Good for them I suppose.

It's actually quite difficult to come up with a way to improve on TBN. I don't think that Oblation as an 'extra' mitigation move was ever necessary, but since they've gone through the effort to make an animation for it, sustain is the only direction I could see this getting better in a meaningful way. You could apply the healing as a HoT after the fact, but that's pretty similar in style to HS.

I do feel like Dark Arts in its present implementation is a wasted UI gauge and I'd like them to do something more with the mechanic. But that's a different issue.

[Ryaduera]

I honestly dont know what you'd do to Oblation to make it feel good to use, I don't even really think DRK needed another mitigation only move at all really

Maybe have it also give a Dark Arts like TBN except without a condition and move Abyssal Drain over to being a no CD move that can be cast with 3000 MP or a Dark Arts? Thats the most I've been able to come up with DRKs current design.
You'd probably have to adjust the heal potency on AD to make that even worth it, maybe they could do that thing they've started doing where it has a higher potency on the first target and a lesser potency on every other target.

TBN isn't 'problematic' in terms of the MP requirement. I know that there are players who want it to be completely foolproof to use, but I would much rather those players learn the damage patterns of the fight. It's not difficult to work around. It'll probably just end up becoming a flat 25% shield on a 25s recast with no MP cost attached, knowing how people are going on about this. Good for them I suppose.

It's actually quite difficult to come up with a way to improve on TBN. I don't think that Oblation as an 'extra' mitigation move was ever necessary, but since they've gone through the effort to make an animation for it, sustain is the only direction I could see this getting better in a meaningful way. You could apply the healing as a HoT after the fact, but that's pretty similar in style to HS.

I do feel like Dark Arts in its present implementation is a wasted UI gauge and I'd like them to do something more with the mechanic. But that's a different issue.

To improve Oblation with a heal and keeping it unique would be pretty simple. A "get hit get heal" mechanic like the opposite of Warrior Vengeance. Upon taking damage heal for a potency of x. Makes DRK pretty good in groups again.

TBN having an MP cost is not problematic, no. TBN not breaking punishing you with a DPS loss is. Again, knowing patterns of fights TBN can just not break anyway. I was doing Zodiark and on the first Exoterikos (Spelling?) if he does triangle + Square I will use TBN and Dark Mind to avoid taking damage and not get a vuln stack but keep uptime. I did this with Dark Mind because even though I know I will not need Shadow Wall again in the cooldown duration, if I do this the auto attack that happens after that damage is applied, TBN does not break... I know this because I learned the fights patterns and used my cooldowns to their fullest to keep uptime and maximize DPS... and instead took a DPS loss the first time i tried it. And there are multiple points with the tripple Exoterikos where you can use the same trick to avoid moving. That feels so incredibly bad. Imagine someone saying you're too good at your job, so you get paid less money.

[Undeadfire]

TTBN having an MP cost is not problematic, no. TBN not breaking punishing you with a DPS loss is. Again, knowing patterns of fights TBN can just not break anyway. I was doing Zodiark and on the first Exoterikos (Spelling?) if he does triangle + Square I will use TBN and Dark Mind to avoid taking damage and not get a vuln stack but keep uptime. I did this with Dark Mind because even though I know I will not need Shadow Wall again in the cooldown duration, if I do this the auto attack that happens after that damage is applied, TBN does not break... I know this because I learned the fights patterns and used my cooldowns to their fullest to keep uptime and maximize DPS... and instead took a DPS loss the first time i tried it. And there are multiple points with the tripple Exoterikos where you can use the same trick to avoid moving. That feels so incredibly bad. Imagine someone saying you're too good at your job, so you get paid less money.

You can take Vuln stacks anyway, Healers wouldn't really care considering how easy the fight is. It only becomes problematic if the DPS is mediocre, otherwise who cares it will barely go above 2 stacks.

[Ryaduera]

You can take Vuln stacks anyway, Healers wouldn't really care considering how easy the fight is. It only becomes problematic if the DPS is mediocre, otherwise who cares it will barely go above 2 stacks.

You just said "It's ok the game punishes you for trying to use your skills as intended (nullifying damage) because you don't need to properly execute mechanics in the first place" and that is not an excuse, it's just negligence. I still get punished for using my abilities.

[Undeadfire]

I mean, people been doing it for years taking Vuln stacks for more DPS, there's nothing remotely wrong with it as long it's not overboard.

[Ryaduera]

I mean, people been doing it for years taking Vuln stacks for more DPS, there's nothing remotely wrong with it as long it's not overboard.

Right, but that doesn't mean I should get punished with outgoing DPS because I didn't take the vuln stack. I should not get punished for using my actions in a way that allows me to avoid a vuln stack just because "it's fine if I got it anyway." This argument lacks grounding so bad that even conjecture would have more standing than "Lol then don't use your abilities." And what if saving the vuln stack means I can take one later for even more uptime?

[Shurrikhan]

TBN having an MP cost is not problematic, no. TBN not breaking punishing you with a DPS loss is. Again, knowing patterns of fights TBN can just not break anyway. I was doing Zodiark and on the first Exoterikos (Spelling?) if he does triangle + Square I will use TBN and Dark Mind to avoid taking damage and not get a vuln stack but keep uptime. I did this with Dark Mind because even though I know I will not need Shadow Wall again in the cooldown duration, if I do this the auto attack that happens after that damage is applied, TBN does not break... I know this because I learned the fights patterns and used my cooldowns to their fullest to keep uptime and maximize DPS... and instead took a DPS loss the first time i tried it. And there are multiple points with the triple Exoterikos where you can use the same trick to avoid moving. That feels so incredibly bad. Imagine someone saying you're too good at your job, so you get paid less money.

While I get that "overmitigating" sounds like a weird thing to be punished for, the situation can be as easily framed instead as "wasteful usage" -- in which case we'd not long have shrugged off being punished for it since prior to EW its cooldown was disproportionately low relative to its power precisely because it has that alternate constraint (available timings, rather than just a cooldown) to keep it in check.

TBN had so low cool a cooldown precisely because it can't quite by used on CD regardless of circumstance; now, with the buffs to the others, it might be justified in not having that further means of curtailing its usage, but I'd really rather that constraint remain -- if not as sharply/punishingly.

I do think its degree of punishment is excess, but I don't think there is a problem with it having punishment.

And if that constraint --something I find interesting and unique about DRK's on-demand-- were removed, I would not be satisfied short of DRK getting a similarly unique and predictive mechanic (ideally, one that harkens back to HW era anti-synergies between overlapped defensives, as current TBN does).

tl;dr: TBN needs improvement, sure, but it doesn't need to lose its fundamentals, learning requirements, and all else that makes it unique.