Dark Knight Megathread

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Why is this so often echoed? A tank is the ONE role on which HP sacrifices actually MAKE sense, since it's the one role that already, until Shadowbringers, made regular use of its eHP as a resource.

And even following Shadowbringers, tanks still make use of eHP as a resource, just in the sense of timed expenditure rather than comparative spending (against offensive opportunities).

Consider a DPS using it instead. Its restrictions would instead be purely a matter of avoiding its use before raid AoEs while essentially just offering a healer attention burden for in order to shift aDPS from healers to that damage-dealer, all without having higher rDPS for the party as a whole (else the job would be imbalanced). No, the only role that should have HP-spending mechanics are those that already have eHP mechanics -- essentially just allowing the job to bank resource via HP spending during damage lulls to then further fortify itself during damage spikes, an altogether very tank-themed mechanic.

I personally am in the boat that it is absolutely possible to use HP as a resource on a tank, however to facilitate this, one of two things needs to happen to not put unreasonable burden on healers for the DRK to up his damage:

A.) DRK needs a significantly bigger pool of HP as a buffer for using HP as part of your damage mechanics, between 25-75% more than other tanks, either in form of a low CD ability or passively.

The downsides of this option is threefold:

- it makes surviving mechanics or busters tremendously easier by using heals instead of shields to boost this buffer or by underusing HP spenders which could be seen as an issue of imbalance for progression

- mechanics requiring full HP for completion (think Seat of Sacrifice: True Living Dead) will be more difficult proportional to the increase of maxHP

- problem #2 applies for Living Dead and unless LD has its effect reworked or contains "while under walking dead: hp spenders are now free", it will become extremely counterintuitive to use.

B.) DRK would need significantly more available self sustain akin to having Bloodbath, with uptime matching intended use count for HP spenders.

Funnily enough, the tank that would qualify for HP spenders the most is WARRIOR, given the insane amount of HP recovery it will boast coming Endwalker.

[Shurrikhan]

I personally am in the boat that it is absolutely possible to use HP as a resource on a tank, however to facilitate this, one of two things needs to happen to not put unreasonable burden on healers for the DRK to up his damage:

A.) DRK needs a significantly bigger pool of HP as a buffer for using HP as part of your damage mechanics, between 25-75% more than other tanks, either in form of a low CD ability or passively.

...Why, though? Why would that be necessary? You don't spend HP in the moments you need the HP. You spend it when you don't as to prevent HoTs from being wasteful and to, say, prepare defensive resources thereby afforded for the moments you do need added eHP.

Nor is there any reason for increased %HP; HP has no difference from eHP provided by any other means outside of having been thematically attached to Warrior. And again, you don't need that permanently or as any compensation to the kit beyond what the HP spending should, itself, rightly afford.

Damage is the least sensible use to design for spending HP. Consider instead, for instance, when MP was spent for augmented defensives, (increased) self-healing, or increased enmity (with any potency bonus being part and parcel with the latter two, even if perhaps very slightly overwhelming). Such would be a far more sensible direction for what HP spending would ultimately offer -- even if the exact mode of that spending would still determine if DRK must be, say, more proactive that most tanks -- if we must borrow from past approaches (in this case, that of HW).

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Damage is the least sensible use to design for spending HP. Consider instead, for instance, when MP was spent for augmented defensives, (increased) self-healing, or increased enmity (with any potency bonus being part and parcel with the latter two, even if perhaps very slightly overwhelming). Such would be a far more sensible direction for what HP spending would ultimately offer -- even if the exact mode of that spending would still determine if DRK must be, say, more proactive that most tanks -- if we must borrow from past approaches (in this case, that of HW).

And how exactly would non-damage utility exactly be balanced to neither be pointless nor too strong when using HP as a resource?

What point is there to spend one part of eHP (actual HP) to generate another? Either the output is significant enough for me to do this and consider playing DRK because the output is actually meaningful especially when having their HP healed once spent, or I play a tank that does this equal or better without requiring additional HP or HoTs to generate this utility.

While I can see that people still seek to relive the days of HW where spending MP (or HP) on enhancing utility was at least relevant, it had massive issues that come to light once you take the rose-tinted glasses off and try to think how this would be affected by the current PVE design - leaving aside SE / Yoshida clearly said they will not go back to class design based on HW times.

Again, I am all in for using HP as a resource, but spending it for survival is either really good (Superbolide) or not worth it, depending on the conversion. It can have a middle ground of power level, but is only helpful if the DRK player can generate the lost HP at least partially on their own - again, see Warrior.

"Wasted HoTs / heals" are by nature wasted and not something to base on, but YMMV.

[Shurrikhan]

As a tank hp is being used as a resource already while your being hit. Unless you’d want to tie it to LD in some way it seems it would be a difficult implementation.

That would only be a problem if we had no control over the pacing of the HP expenditure, unlike, say, our MP spending.

And how exactly would non-damage utility exactly be balanced to neither be pointless nor too strong when using HP as a resource?

The same way as any other form of complexity, such as MP at present. It's a tool to be worked with and around that provides a unique form of skill-ceiling.

GNB has its APM tax; while it's perhaps a bit overly restrictive, we cannot deny that it nonetheless seeds identity.
WAR has its Nascent windows; you are expected to optimize around them, but we cannot deny that they seed identity.
Etc., etc.

Unique Merits: Can survive some things others cannot under errant circumstances. Allows for more immediate and/or offensive uses of large heal CDs. Slightly greater downtime effectiveness due to being spend HP just before nonthreatening boss jumps or other forms of forced downtime during which healing is available.

Unique Task: Time HP spending around healer abilities and prior to upcoming damage. Spend HP additionally for further damage (less efficient) before forced downtime during which healers can still heal you (and would have nothing else/better to do).

If there is no appeal to having such, what is the basis for our complaints about identity over the last 4 years, especially over Shadowbringers?
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What point is there to spend one part of eHP (actual HP) to generate another?

You answered it yourself:

the output is significant enough for me to do this and consider playing DRK because the output is actually meaningful

It reduces the spikiness of damage intake. You have, per player pacing, more missing HP during lulls (which in turn means more room for increasedly efficient-over-time), and less during spikes.

Could you survive without it on optimized CD schedules? Yes.
Could you survive things you otherwise could not, making up for a slower top-off or a slipped minor CD at some point? Also yes.

If differences of that level are irrelevant, why would we ever complain about any lack of uniqueness in, say, a defensive toolkit? Would it be better if everything about them were interchangeable, dropping tank job skills names entirely in favor of "25s CD", "60s CD", "90s CD", "3 minute CD", "raid CD" and "invuln"?

There's a reason things like Quietus under Blood Weapon into DA-AD are fondly remembered. They're capacities and playflows that are at best indirectly analogous to other tanks, that actually let the given job feel unique.

[Claire_Pendragon]

DRK needs a significantly bigger pool of HP as a buffer for using HP as part of your damage mechanics, between 25-75% more than other tanks, either in form of a low CD ability or passively.

While I dont think a "direct" HP requirement on skills is the best way to do things (exceptions being things like superbolide) in the example you gave, theres other ways to do it. such as having a buff that triggers when you sacrifice HP, which increases heals received for a bit. Another is to have a "pool" of.. oh, idk... lets say "Blood" that you can also use in place of HP, if you saved up enough. etc (you already covered HP drains/selfheals).
but im of the opinion HP should only be consumed if its towards defensive skills that easily out weight the cost of HP. (besides superbolide, TBN could cost 5% of current HP, grants 25% shield. basic healer regen probably would top u off anyways, if u absolutely needed that 5% hp to survive something even with TBN up.)

"Wasted HoTs / heals" are by nature wasted and not something to base on, but YMMV.

side note: With the current designs/options in game, id say this statement is more than reasonable, but with a little imagination, id say you could base an entire class on "wasted regens" (which i have a tank class dedicated for this in my own game)

Again, I am all in for using HP as a resource, but spending it for survival is either really good (Superbolide) or not worth it, depending on the conversion.

ooc, what would be the point in making it "not worth it"? superbolide is an example of using it perfectly.

[ItMe]

side note: With the current designs/options in game, id say this statement is more than reasonable, but with a little imagination, id say you could base an entire class on "wasted regens" (which i have a tank class dedicated for this in my own game)

That sounds interesting.
What is your game called and how can I try it out?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

ooc, what would be the point in making it "not worth it"? superbolide is an example of using it perfectly.

Bolide being a high CD invuln, using all your HP except 1 is justified because it essentially offers limitless eHP through damage nullification within the duration, justifying the CD and HP cost.

Your TBN example is a soft nerf to current values which is more relevant to auto attacks in final savage floors and ultimates, but I could handwave through "barely" since luckily 5% isnt too much and is likely covered by Souleater.

However, take into account that WAR has a similar ability in Thrill of Battle (+20% maxHP and 20%HP shield are of equal value numerically but thrill also boosts heal effects) and has an arguably superior short CD ability in Nascent Flash and soon also Bloodwhetting, which is where it could get difficult regarding "why would I play DRK if I could play WAR instead".

Conversion of HP is just as important as asking if another tank will do this exact task with equal or greater benefit / equal or lesser hassle for the group. It can be done, but the keyword is " finetuning".

[Claire_Pendragon]

But WAR-

The question I asked was in the context of just the idea by itself, and not within the context of comparing it to current job designs.
Saying "its a nerf" means nothing, if DRK started off with its design this way, before it was given TBN in its original form. (I also dont think WAR should have had Thrill and/or its massive drain abilities, considering job identity of prior FFs. But thats a different argument) Also current thrill does boost heals, but didnt before.
Anyways, I do understand all job changes to DRK also means changes to other tanks (which is what usually happens in each expansion, or major changes to jobs mid patch, unless one job was rly behind compared to the others)

As for the comment about how much more effort a "HP sac tank" requires over a "non HP sac tank" requires, is a different argument, as youre talking about playstyles. Which obviously every tank should have something in their playstyle to manage. It doesnt have to be the same thing. Ex: a tank can press 123 combo (like DRK) having little focus on DPS/Threat, but instead have to focus on managing their mitigation (like HP sac in this case) while another tank gets easy to press/use mitigations, easy threat, but now has to worry about a longer DPS rotation/DoTs/DPS buffs. Kinda like PLD. (not to be confused with less dps, just more complex. also doesnt equate punishing either, as that can be balanced to be less punishing if u fail. thats not part of the argument. I bring this up, because its the #1 thing ppl try to argue back with, despite it being unrelated) as you get the idea. Now, I mentioned 5% Hp because its just within the range of almost seeimg like its enough to matter, but realistically, it doesnt. Heck back when I raided as MT and my healers refused to let me drop tank stance, I eventually sneaked "turning it off", and after awhile i mentioned it to them, and they were surprised it didnt seem any harder to heal me. Thats 20% mitigation through an entire fight. if 20% is mostly unnoticeable, then 5% on an occasion will never be a reason for anyone to actually care. Its pure job lore fantasy aesthetics. (I also mentioned this back when TBN used to be 20% HP shield, and i said "Up it to 25% with a cost of 5%". and thrill at the time had no healing attached.) You could even lower the HP cost even further, along with other alternatives i mentioned prior, but Im not really gonna type all that out. I doubt this is even being read >.>;

But you did mention "fine-tuning" which is of course correct, as my comment was in context of fine-tuning being done, and not just dumping the current HP sac into the game as is.

Over all, such a large amount of tank identity has been improperly divided between the tanks since 1.9. WAR being the heal tank, and PLD being the armor/def tank feels backwards. WARs heals mostly being tied to Drains also feels like a poor fit, if DRK was going to be a tank. They have taken DPS identities from 1 job, and given it to the new job next expansion before, no reason they couldnt have done that with tanks. (While DRK isnt the sole "Drain" user in FFs, it IS the only one of the 3 tanks that used Drains, so its the better fit) and as u mentioned issues like WAR having more HP, drains, and I mentioned HP healed, and something akin to thrill, fit the HP sac playstyle. Too much of what should be DRKs tool kit, was given to other tanks. (Made worse with superbolide going to GNB, so now a 3rd tank has something thats more of a DRK identity.) WARs mixture of Berserker, and Knight(Fighter really) identity should have been more flavored to be like the prior FFs. Berserks pacification didnt quite feel like typical berserk, but inner release seemed much closer. (before 4.0, the "dmg increase" and "repetitive attacks" were separate, where as with SBs inner release, they combined them, feeling more like classic berserk) Berserkers, and non PLD designed Knights, didnt self heal, and solely relied on their armor/defenses. And in a few games, berserkers had a passive dmg mitigation like a native tank stance... WARs invuln should have been something more akin to LD, except dying, some sort of loss of control over your characters attacks (maybe all attacks are just some basic WS for X amount of seconds) , leading to a similar amount of DPS loss as a death/raise/weakness. (what ever that value would be estimated to be) Anyways...
I know SE would NEVER do anything like this, but imo "setting things straight" should have been done years ago, before we got this far. So this is why i think its not a great idea to add HP sac to DRK now.