Dark Knight Megathread

[Bhearil]

The same thing could be said the same to you. Just because some people agree with you doesn't make it right, especially threads like these tend to attract like-minded people because we all know lots people come to this section of the forum are mostly for making complaints. People are less likely to comment each other's opinions when they find themselves allies. Not to mention when people start complaining things, they tend to become more and more biased because they are so fixated on unleashing their anger that reasons alone are not enough, including me though.

The reason that brought me here is the word carbon copy. It is a strong word. If it's partially the same. then it's not carbon copy. Simply considering their mitigation tools and other dps options are enough to know they are not exactly the same

WAR's play style are GCD reliant, while DRK has to weave lots of oGCDs
WAR does not have ground target ability. DRK has one called Salted Earth.
WAR does not have powerful personal shield. DRK has one called TBN
WAR has Upheaval that only spend 20 gauge. DRK only has spenders which all cost 50 gauge
Infuriate augments WAR's abilities, while blood weapon does not
The list goes on

Although I can agree with Delirium = IR part, the rest I disagree. If we remove Delirium and IR out of consideration. They are simply spenders that cost 50% of you maximum gauge. GNB and NIN also share similar properties of gauge spenders. All of their spenders cost them 50% of maximum gauges. By the same perspective, there are jobs that share similar aspect of how they refill their gauges. NIN and GNB have them. SAM, RDM, MCH have them. I personally think the only ability closest to Blood Weapon is Brotherhood from MNK. If you look at it at grander scale, even most jobs are similar in some way. However, we don't say every job is carbon copy just because there're some similarities between them. There are differences you chose to ignore. It's fine by me if it fits your agenda. I understand why people make complaints and their sentiments. I might even support them even though there's something I disagree with. I made a reply simply for that strong word and the sense of long time player entitlement and superiority behind the person I quoted. I said DRK and WAR are carbon copies is an overstatement,but I did not say anyone's viewpoint is wrong. You may have your reasons and they might be solid, but carbon copy is not the right word. It just isn't.

Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

I dont think Salted Earth, Blood Weapon or even TBN despite how broken it is gives DRK a substantial difference in gameplay (spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again) compared to WAR. They are at best small bits of flavour like Simulacrum that is basically a glorified dot every 120 seconds

Having the same ice cream with 2 different topplings, doesnt alter its taste much even if technically they are not the same

[Benn]

Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

(spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again)

Um, as someone whos first pick was Samurai and I played him the most.... that's basically how many classes play. You throw everything you can in burst window, and then use your base combo till all CDs alligne again. Samurai works on strict 60s and 120s burst windows and between that all you do is spam his long basic chain.

I mean, you could make that argument about most jobs in FF. That's how system works. FF is mostly a build-up-spender system and I don't see what wrong with that.

What they are trying to do is lowering the skill ceiling to make tanks accessible to everyone. You could argue DRK is an alternative to your 3 other tanks in regards to more interesting gameplay, but that isn't true anymore and most likely will stay that way.
.

This is also my take, and you may hate me for it as new player but that's the only reason FF is my first MMO where I want to main tanks. Becasue tanks already have huge responsibility in party and pressure and I absolutely would not want to have complicated mechanics on top of that and It's nice to have burst window where I throw all my skills at once, it's badass and I like that after that things are simpler and so I don't have to shift my focus that much from other tank responsibilites.

Now, I know this is strictly subjective but believe me when I say it - you have more sprout tanks in game now thanks to SE making tanks simpler and more straight foward. You may not like it - but that's a fact.

[Bhearil]

Dont remember when playing samurai that my rotation was composed of 3 skills on a 1-2-3 combo. Last time i played it you had 3 different combos, without counting the plethora of things you do along the way like Soha or squeezing as many Seigan as possible during aoe situations and using different Iaijutsus depending on the situation and having to adapt to not mess your damage window. Samurai is not my cup of tea but i wont deny that its at least solid gameplay wise.

Getting new players to try tanking is good, problem is that if you get sprout tanks in exchange of losing veterans, you end having the same number of tanks as before but with crappier players. Lately im noticing that most tanks on duties are quite mediocre at best compared to the previous expansions. Before you had the bad tank from time to time but lately im getting lots of "whats cds?" or "only pull 1 group" tanks as well. And it happens with healers sometimes too where they either overheal like crazy, let people die because they dps too much or that they stare the bars doing nothing until the HP goes down without doing any dps at all despite having lots of downtime. Plus you rely on the new players not leaving the roles to play as dps

Before tanks and healers quickly learned to play and when entering Heavensward content they were at least generally "decent", now we can get tanks and healers that can barely know which buttons to press just before entering Shadowbringers despite being almost braindead to tank and heal as long as people dont screw with the (usually basic and recycled) mechanics

[Benn]

Dont remember when playing samurai that my rotation was composed of 3 skills on a 1-2-3 combo. Last time i played it you had 3 different combos, without counting the plethora of things you do along the way like Soha or squeezing as many Seigan as possible during aoe situations and using different Iaijutsus depending on the situation and having to adapt to not mess your damage window. Samurai is not my cup of tea but i wont deny that its at least solid gameplay wise.

On tank you do 1-2-3 basic combo. On Samurai you do 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-3. It's just pushing same buttons in GCD, no matter if you have 3 of them or 6, it's just "button", 2,5 seconds, "button", 2,5 seconds, "button".

You squeez Shinten or Shoha between burst window same as DRK squeezes Bloodsplitter (equivalent of Shinten as gauge spender) and you squeezes Edge of Shadow if you can (equivalent of Shoha if your meditation stacks are 3).

On basic most jobs works the same:

1. Opening, tons of buttons to press, all OGCDs, build gauges, spend everything.
2. Downtime- basic combo + using spenders where you know you can so you have resources back on your big burst window and don't overcap gauge/mana/meditation/whatever-name-of-yet-another-gauge-is
3. Big Burst window - repeat no 1. as much as possible.

Rise, repeat.

[Bhearil]

On tank you do 1-2-3 basic combo. On Samurai you do 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-3. It's just pushing same buttons in GCD, no matter if you have 3 of them or 6, it's just "button", 2,5 seconds, "button", 2,5 seconds, "button".

You squeez Shinten or Shoha between burst window same as DRK squeezes Bloodsplitter (equivalent of Shinten as gauge spender) and you squeezes Edge of Shadow if you can (equivalent of Shoha if your meditation stacks are 3).

On basic most jobs works the same:

1. Opening, tons of buttons to press, all OGCDs, build gauges, spend everything.
2. Downtime- basic combo + using spenders where you know you can so you have resources back on your big burst window and don't overcap gauge/mana/meditation/whatever-name-of-yet-another-gauge-is
3. Big Burst window - repeat no 1. as much as possible.

Rise, repeat.

All pc games are the same since you have to turn your pc on and press buttons if we follow that logic...

[Benn]

All pc games are the same since you have to turn your pc on and press buttons if we follow that logic...

That's pure example of "Straw Man Fallacy", which means you couldn't counter my argument so you went for "exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making"

[Bhearil]

That's pure example of "Straw Man Fallacy", which means you couldn't counter my argument so you went for "exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making"

Thanks for proving my point. To even insinuate that tanks and healer damage rotations are as complex as a dps job is only justificable if you go the strawman route and is as ridiculous a my sarcastic remark. You should read your own quotes first before mentioning others.

Of course most jobs depend on pressing buttons on a certain order, thats the basic of the game. The only jobs that doesnt do that on their dps rotation are the healers because they literally have a 1 button rotation

[Aword3213]

Many people use the term "carbon copy" generally speaking, doesnt mean they are equal (yet) but most of their core gameplay is shared.

I dont think Salted Earth, Blood Weapon or even TBN despite how broken it is gives DRK a substantial difference in gameplay (spam normal combo, refresh your permabuffs when needed and hog as much resources as possible for the burst window where you throw everything you can, then go back to base combo and start again) compared to WAR. They are a best small bits of flavour like Simulacrum that is basically a glorified dot every 120 seconds

Having the same ice cream with 2 different topplings, doesnt alter its taste much even if technically they are not the same

If carbon copy does not mean what it actually means, then I believe describing it as overstatement is reasonable.

I still don't think their core gameplay is similar though. Points already made in my reply you quoted. However, such matter is subjective and I respect your opinion.