Dark Knight Megathread

[Sazuzaki]

This is an ongoing issue with DRK, and another reason why I and many others think this job needs a rework with the new tank CDs introduced in EW, as well as the 2 minute meta.

To explain and add some context, I usually soak the duo tank buster in P10S alone. The healers feel it makes it easier for them, so usually I just pop Shadow Wall + Dark Mind + TBN + maybe Reprisal/Dark Missionary. The third duo buster aligns directly with the 2 minute burst, followed by an immediate tower buster which requires me to save mana for TBN, otherwise I tank a ton of damage from the tower. So there comes a point where I have to skip an Edge of Shadow on raidbuffs so I have enough mana to use for The Blackest Night. This also happened somewhere in the last tier, I think P7S?

Basically, putting tank busters right after 2 minute bursts sucks for Dark Knight because it makes you hold your MP instead of spending it on raid buffs. It punishes you for tanking.

I say remove the 3000 MP cost of TBN, but rework DRK to have other MP spenders that are purely for DPS. Make us manage our mana through our rotation, NOT our cooldowns.

[Oizen]

I do wonder how painful it would be to try to optimize TBN usage if it had no cost but still gave free edges. Imagine having to take 25% hp damage every 15 seconds.

[Sazuzaki]

I mean, TBN doesn't have to give free edges. If you wanna take the easy route, just slap a regen when it breaks. A cooler route would have it restore a percentage of damage taken when the shield breaks.

[Shurrikhan]

I mean, TBN doesn't have to give free edges.

It doesn't give free edges though. It merely refunds its own cost in a way that doesn't allow for TBN after TBN.

Remove that factor and you simply remove most of the timing complexity/skill-gap in TBN, replacing those considerations with something akin to anyone else's, with the cooldown likely increased by 40% in exchange. And with that reduced flexibility would come far less reward for knowledgeable pre-casting, %mitigation timing, etc.

I say remove the 3000 MP cost of TBN, but rework DRK to have other MP spenders that are purely for DPS.

I'd rather not. I prefer that distinction on/of TBN, especially when considering what it then affords and rewards.

Moreover, what added depth is particularly going to come from just having yet more oGCD attacks?

We could already (and should) just put an MP cost on Shadowbringer and perhaps Carve and Spit, compensated for with increased MP per Syphon/Stalwart/Bloodspiller/Quietus to shift some of our burst apm over towards our lulls (leaving room for defensives while also leaving us less bored between bursts), but then... do we really need yet another oGCD to hit per 20|30|40|60 seconds? Why not just reduce the CD of CnS and AD to 40, for instance, instead, or break AD apart from CnS's CD and have AD apply a debuff that effectively grants DRK Bloodbath against the target (lower % but longer duration than Bloodwhetting/Nascent)? Etc., etc.

[Sazuzaki]

It doesn't give free edges though. It merely refunds its own cost in a way that doesn't allow for TBN after TBN.

If TBN was free, yes it would indeed be free edges. I was talking about the hypothetical TBN Oizen said.

I'd rather not. I prefer that distinction on/of TBN, especially when considering what it then affords and rewards.

That's why I would rather funnel those resources elsewhere. If TBN just had it's cost removed, and DRK was left as is, I would just stop playing it and I'm sure many others would follow suit. That's why I'm saying DRK would absolutely need a rework if this were the case so we can actually actively manage our MP, rather than just bank all our MP for a burst only to get punished in the scenarios I mentioned.

I do like TBN rn. I like the flavor of having a cost to our defensives, but I just think there's other ways it could be done, cause current TBN can be pretty stupid sometimes. As I've said before, I feel like it's holding us back from getting other cool shit.

I like those other ideas you mentioned though. No idea why they didn't make Shadowbringer cost MP. There really was nothing to change up DRK this expansion.

[Shurrikhan]

As I've said before, I feel like [TBN]'s holding us back from getting other cool shit.

Again, I just... don't see how that could make any sense. The coolest shit we had... was at the same time TBN was at its strongest. Every nerf to our self-sustain, unique tools, etc., all followed alongside TBN nerfs, not as a trade for TBN.

And mechanically, the only thing TBN could at all conflict with... are things we were already fine with back in HW: the fact that our maximal mitigation would depend partly on retaining a margin of MP. And back then we had MP drain atop all that. Now... there's just nothing of note for TBN's MP cost to compete with or prevent through its inclusion. It... doesn't hold back a damn thing.

[Sazuzaki]

Yeah, but the class design was a lot different back then. They seemed to not mind letting jobs have depth, along with plenty of other things back then. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason we aren't getting more MP spenders is because the devs for some reason think it's hard enough to balance MP between EoS and TBN. That's just my guess and I could be entirely wrong, but the point is class design is a lot different than 3.0 and 4.0.

But even then, that's not my main point. My main point about TBN is the fact that there's ways it simply punishes you for the way it works. Ex: Becoming harder to break with better gear and mitigation, having to skip a bit on raid buffs to save it for tank busters, having an underwhelming reward, etc etc

Literally all I'm saying is I'd rather our MP management go directly into our rotation so we actually have to pay attention to it. You seem to think that I'm asking for them to make TBN free and call it a day, when I'm not at all asking for that. I'd rather not have a job where the entire identity and depth is centered around 1 skill you get at lvl 70.

In the end, I like mastering TBN and it does feel rewarding at times, but the ability itself has a lot of problems that I wish they'd fix.

[Shurrikhan]

But even then, that's not my main point. My main point about TBN is the fact that there's ways it simply punishes you for the way it works. Ex: Becoming harder to break with better gear and mitigation

This I'll admit is a bit of an issue, yeah. I feel like it wouldn't be one if we had (even the most conservative) increases to chip damage intake that most players have been asking for, but for the time being it is an issue to want less passive eHP specifically so we can have higher SPS (sustain [effective healing + damage nullified] per second). In any other context but DRK, that'd be... pretty ridiculous.

Again, my preferred solution is just to increase chip damage, game-wide. Barring that, though, perhaps just revert it to the Stormblood version of a 20% HP barrier on a 12s CD, instead of 25% on a 15s CD? We could buff some of its currently lackluster CDs in TBN's stead, such as by giving Oblation a second, briefer layer of mitigation [20% until having taken damage, 10% thereafter; or just 20% for the first 4s and 10% for the rest] or buffing Dark Mind slightly (retaining the anti-magic advantage, but maybe applying also a 10% physical mitigation component).

Heck, if we actually did anything interesting with our Blood Gauge... we might well want to have TBN nullify the next Blood spender's costs (and maybe slightly amp its potency) instead of granting MP -- likewise a reversion towards Stormblood's version, but without such a threat of overcapping.

[Sazuzaki]

Again, my preferred solution is just to increase chip damage, game-wide. Barring that, though, perhaps just revert it to the Stormblood version of a 20% HP barrier on a 12s CD, instead of 25% on a 15s CD? We could buff some of its currently lackluster CDs in TBN's stead, such as by giving Oblation a second, briefer layer of mitigation [20% until having taken damage, 10% thereafter; or just 20% for the first 4s and 10% for the rest] or buffing Dark Mind slightly (retaining the anti-magic advantage, but maybe applying also a 10% physical mitigation component).

If TBN is to keep it's cost, yeah reverting it back to a 20% shield on a 12 sec CD while buffing our lesser CDs sounds really good. That would address a lot of the issues of it not breaking as there's usually only a sliver of the shield left when that happens.
Bursting would still feel pretty bad if I had to skimp out on a EoS, but so long as I have enough extra mitigation for the next incoming buster to prevent me from dropping to like 20% HP, that would work really well.

[Shurrikhan]

Bursting would still feel pretty bad if I had to skimp out on a EoS, but so long as I have enough extra mitigation for the next incoming buster to prevent me from dropping to like 20% HP, that would work really well.

So, real quick... that much can be dealt with just by having Dark Arts stack and/or only nullify the cost of an EoS you'd otherwise be unable to afford. We can fix that separately and immediately.

If TBN is to keep it's cost, yeah reverting it back to a 20% shield on a 12 sec CD while buffing our lesser CDs sounds really good. That would address a lot of the issues of it not breaking as there's usually only a sliver of the shield left when that happens.

That's my thinking here, yeah. That or you...

1. Replace the all-or-nothing refund with a granular refund (less annoying but also far less exciting).

The Blackest Night
Creates a barrier around self or target party member that absorbs damage totaling 25% of target's maximum HP.
Duration: 7s
Generate Dark Arts based on the portion of shield consumed, to a maximum of 30 stacks.
Dark Arts Effect: Consume Dark Arts stacks in place of MP when otherwise unable to afford an MP-spending ability. Each stack of Dark Arts nullifies the cost of 100 MP.

2. Give DRK a means of varying the %HP of TBN.

The Blackest Night
Consume up to 30% your maximum MP in order to generate a barrier on self or target party member that absorbs damage totaling an equal % of your HP.
Duration: 7s
Grants Dark Arts when barrier is completely absorbed.
Dark Arts Effect: Increases the damage of your next ability by up to 100%, based on the amount of damage absorbed.

(Yes, TBN could then be worth up to 600 [+300n] potency.)

Obviously that latter idea is highly spitball, and would require a context where DRK can far more rapidly regenerate its MP via decently bankable tools (e.g., a far more potent CnS and AD, and on two shared 40s charges, and maybe Blood Weapon, instead of being a fixed CD bundled with Delirium, consumes Darkside granularly and grants greater Attack Speed at high %MP but greater MP regen at lower %MP).