Dark Knight Megathread

[Shurrikhan]

Maybe, but that's only an instantaneous effect on the activation of SE... and if S&D did it instead, you have a wonky thing where S&D both encourages already having enemies inside as a skillshot and pulls them in as a freebie.

Plus, maybe I'm weird, I think there are other jobs where that would be more fitting, including AST on Gravity, BLM on Foul, SCH on some tactical spell or one of the other casters on some Tornado effect. Works fine for DRK in PvP because there's no way to force enemies to stand inside, but it's otherwise a bit outside the theme in PvE, imo.

I'd agree with Gravity and maybe a revived Aero III or similar wind (and later Holy-esque) nuke being the best fits for a draw-in, but there's no reason a tank can't have one such skill, too. We don't need to limit the capacity to just a top 2, especially if they're both in the same role. Personally, moreover, I'd take Salted Earth for a draw-in effect over Foul.

[Archwizard]

I'd agree with Gravity and maybe a revived Aero III or similar wind (and later Holy-esque) nuke being the best fits for a draw-in, but there's no reason a tank can't have one such skill, too. We don't need to limit the capacity to just a top 2, especially if they're both in the same role. Personally, moreover, I'd take Salted Earth for a draw-in effect over Foul.

Fair, but even then there's a question of what tanks are most thematic for that, beyond the simple practicality of "DRK has a persistent ground effect".
... Which its whole job is to bait enemies into anyway, and doesn't necessarily make it more wanting for a draw-in than any other tank, especially when Bow Shock and Circle of Scorn snapshot the enemies nearby at the instant they were cast.

For instance, WAR has that whole chain thing it does with Holmgang, even extending as far as several mobs having AoE versions of it where they pull all enemies to them. (Which I feel is kind of an important distinction to make, given DRK's current status in WAR's shadow and the need to define clear separation between them.)
Not to mention GNB is on par with Superman as far as the bar for justifying new superpowers, given its otherwise undefined theme and skillset. If you told me it had a bullet that made a vacuum or magnetic pulse, I'd have to shrug and accept it because I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't.
Not to forget I mentioned a couple casters there, too. ShB's Caster role questline had you dealing with a BLM who could summon black holes, and that's ignoring that NIN and both the other casters still have Wind and Earth skills (and ignoring whatever caster comes next, fingers crossed for GEO who would also be a perfect fit if WHM doesn't get Tornado), plus MCH having the same justifications as GNB.

By contrast, Salted Earth alone just... corrupts the ground beneath your feet to make it toxic to stand on.
You could reasonably do a lot with that, including having it just afflict everyone with a DoT or debuff every second they're in the zone that persists even after they leave or it fades, or even making it impossible for them to leave until it does fade (if they weren't likely to shatter on any instance of damage, I might suggest a Bind effect on S&D, and stuns in the rotation are out of the question), I'd even be open to having it gain some type of defensive bonus (though in my own rework I think I've pushed DRK's survivability more than far enough already without that), but it feels like a stretch to have a pull-in without some built-in justification like a landslide or black hole.

Not to say it can't have one, just... is DRK really even among the best fits?

And yes, I know I'm putting a lot of emphasis on theme and flavor here, but CC effects are pointless in most content so it would be entirely for dungeon flavor anyway.

[shao32]

It's really a nice rework, personally I would think it would be nice if instead of having shadowbringer being 3 stacks wich is not only risky but uninteresting from an optimization point of view just keep the skill at 60s recast with 1 use or even 30s 2 charges if you want that burst and one of your main focus is get 2 dark arts during the downtime wich can be tricky depending of the combat but more easy if is only 1.

I would redirect more of the bulk of the job management to his abyss, Darkside, Scourge and MP usage with putting both blood weapon and carve and spit in a 30s recast with 2 charges each so you can adapt the resource generation smoothly in any combat.
You generate more Darkside so more upgrades on the downtime making it more visual and less of a chore in the downtime with at least Some real MP management, the burst is already busted with Shadowbringer, living shadow and the oGCD/buffs that got in to the 60/120 mark, the only inconvenient is that shield/protect effect that generate extra MP since you can't be sure you will have raid damage there so it will be inconsistent basically everytime so I suggest a revision of that skill like 30s mini shield and get the MP per shield aplicated, I would even suggest make it a MP Regen so it doesn't become a nightmare due the instant MP and be something like 5s MP Regen +1s per each player shielded to make it more controllable.

Oh and make Scourge effect at least be 24s max if you keep the 12s only but I would prefer 20s generation to a max of 60, combined with more Darksides as I suggested would be a 100% uptime buff more fun to manage with the new upgrades, making Scourge an a 180° cleave would be nice too for aoes and having another Darkside skill to alternate with scourge could be even more interesting.

In resume is nice and is such a same that the Dev team won't even care at all at the end.

Edit: i don't fully understand the purpose of extending the time of sole survivor to be honest.

[Shurrikhan]

Fair, but even then there's a question of what tanks are most thematic for that, beyond the simple practicality of "DRK has a persistent ground effect".
... Which its whole job is to bait enemies into anyway, and doesn't necessarily make it more wanting for a draw-in than any other tank, especially when Bow Shock and Circle of Scorn snapshot the enemies nearby at the instant they were cast.

I was thinking more of Salted Earth's activation would draw in over a larger radius than Salted Earth itself.

And, for my part, wanting Salted Earth to have a draw-in has nothing to do with DRK traditionally having a persistent ground effect, but rather it just fitting the bastardly, takes-every-advantage, no-holds-barred feeling of early (HW and StB) DRK. It is absolutely in the spirit of DRK to slow with trap magic something as to better kick their face in while they're low.

Not to say it can't have one, just... is DRK really even among the best fits?

To me, at least... yeah. Easy top 4. Probably top 3.

[Archwizard]

It's really a nice rework, personally I would think it would be nice if instead

Lots going on with these suggestions, feel free to take anything I've written and run with it for a rework of your own, but I'm just gonna address a handful of points here:

make Scourge effect at least be 24s max if you keep the 12s only

The actual intent was for it to be 10s (so if you used a full pool of Abyss Gauge, you get 20 sec uptime anyway, for parity with burst window effects like No Mercy and Fight or Flight), but I added a bit extra to make up for it being a GCD cost each use that burns off 2 seconds immediately.

If the consensus preferred Scourge be portioned out as more of a "constant uptime" thing, I'd consider it -- but we'd probably see it go down to a 10% effect and some Darkside potencies drop to compensate, making it more akin to the current Darkside effect we have or Surging Tempest.
That said, I don't particularly enjoy the idea of Scourge as an AoE effect here, even if the intent is to make up for Surging Tempest (et al) being a boost in both single and multi-target, because that means more of your AoE phase is devoted to juggling both Scourge and Tar Pit to boost Quietus, when Tar Pit and Quietus' Blind interaction already kinda covers that niche for AoE.
It works in single-target because you build up to a grand finisher that deals massive damage, but AoE is more about instant gratification, which is why AoE rotations are usually less complex.

Plus again, debuff effects aren't well-loved by the devs due to hard limits on the amount of statuses that can be seen on an enemy at once. Trading a constant uptime bonus on you that doesn't even have an associated status effect for a constant uptime debuff would be a hard sell as-is. And Scourge is traditionally a debuff, so...

the only inconvenient is that shield/protect effect that generate extra MP since you can't be sure you will have raid damage there so it will be inconsistent basically everytime so I suggest a revision of that skill like 30s mini shield and get the MP per shield aplicated, I would even suggest make it a MP Regen so it doesn't become a nightmare due the instant MP and be something like 5s MP Regen +1s per each player shielded to make it more controllable.

Absolutely not. Martyr's meant to be a raid utility skill on par with Passage of Arms, and the responsibility is on you to use it efficiently. I also fail to see how instant MP would be "a nightmare" when the skill already consumes all of your MP on cast; the most overcap you can get is 500 MP, and you can't even perform other actions while it's being channeled, so the only way to waste Blood Weapon is to pop it right before channeling.

Meanwhile what you're suggesting is basically a third Divine Veil or Shake It Off, but with MP return for the caster. Something where you can just use it mindlessly on CD for free MP (and would probably just replace Dark Missionary). I already don't think we need to homogenize tank utilities further, much less put one in your DPS rotation.

i don't fully understand the purpose of extending the time of sole survivor to be honest.

Twofold purpose. You have to remember that as Sole Survivor is currently written, it can trigger like a variant Excogitation effect in addition to its original "on target death or effect expiration" binary. In effect, every time you heal with it active, you stave off the Excogitation trigger.

In target swap scenarios, extending the duration of Sole Survivor means you can bump up the effect to hold out for when the afflicted target dies to get a higher yield. (You get about 50% more health and a full spender worth of MP from the target dying first, which can more than double the original effect.)

In single-target scenarios when the "on death" effect is either unattainable or useless anyway, it's to extend the window in which you get bonus healing from your MP spenders.

I was thinking more of Salted Earth's activation would draw in over a larger radius than Salted Earth itself.

Sure, that's pretty much what I expected -- that's how it works in PVP after all.

It is absolutely in the spirit of DRK to slow with trap magic

... which I already have Salted Earth doing. And I'm open to more than that as far as suggestions for S&D, but agree to disagree on a vacuum in PVE.

[shao32]

Thanks for the answer.

The point of scourge at contrary that current Darkside is I can see it as a mechanic you actively can manage to keep the uptime wich is fun contrary to the current Darkside wich is a totally useless mechanic gameplay wise, apart it would be way more interesting that VS being just a small mini burst window on my opinion when the job it's just a huge burst and nothing else so have actual sustained mechanics are a must right now apart constantly diving in to the darkside to keep your enemies weakened while you empower yourself time to time fits DRK lore and original design philosophy wich I love.
The suggestion of cone for Scourge is just to fit that design on AOE situations, otherwise see they will be just "Tar pit - Quietus - Tar pit" feels like a bit broken continuity considering there is no guarantee that the next set of Darkside will continue from Tar pit and if the blind effect is still up but that's just me, I see it more clean as an "Scourge - Tar pit - Quietus" combo that breaks the visual monotony even more wich is good and remain simple.

For Martyr I didn't saw it consumes all your MP so my fault, I just assumed it start generating massive MP returns on top of what you have and could be problematic, looking at it I would see they will abuse the skill for the MP returns more than anything else, you would want to have the least amount of MP as possible when use the skills to get the maximum gains and if is like passage of arms it would be an instant refill in less of a second on a raid aoe every 120s, it can be interesting from a sustained DPS point of view but that's will depends of how much MP you wanna destinated on burst windows so I can see it becoming clunky to dealt with it if MP is not considering something you wanna keep balanced instead of saving and just be a burst battery like now, other wise will be a rewarding skill to mid max but only in a sustained MP usage design.

And for sole survivor I see, well I can be nice thing like for example turn 3on birds phase depending of the situation, I guess is fine and a harmless thing to have.

[Archwizard]

The suggestion of cone for Scourge is just to fit that design on AOE situations, otherwise see they will be just "Tar pit - Quietus - Tar pit"

... the Blind isn't consumed by Quietus, and reapplying the Blind while it's active would have no effect, so you would do Tar Pit - Quietus - Quietus.
If you pool resources or use C&S, possibly even as far as Tar Pit - Quietus - Quietus - Quietus - Quietus - choice of Quietus or Tar Pit depending on the importance of the Blind at that point and your latency.

It's meant to be a bit more flexible than Power Slash -> Bloodspiller.

looking at it I would see they will abuse the skill for the MP returns more than anything else, you would want to have the least amount of MP as possible when use the skills to get the maximum gains and if is like passage of arms it would be an instant refill in less of a second on a raid aoe every 120s

Like I said: It's on you to optimize its use.

Martyr takes the old Blood Price (damage taken -> MP restored), spins it into a raid utility, and adds a gamble: Pushing the button guarantees you lose all your MP, your DPS uptime drops drastically, and you're going to be eating part of the whole raid's damage. (Including the hit directed at you, that's up to 205% damage from raidwides.)
And as an intentional gamble, it should reward you for using it in a manner where the reward justifies that risk: if you protect the entire raid with it, and you survive, you win an All or Nothing bet. Fail to do one or both, you lose that bet.
Which, personally, I think is a bet tanks should be encouraged to take, considering that's their role summed up in one line. DRK in particular though is a job whose (for lack of a better word) mythology is based on personal risk, turning self-damage into power.

That is the entire thesis of Martyr.

Now ideally, like PoA, the loss of uptime is going to be enough of a deterrent to prevent it from being tapped on CD, rather than folded into your mitigation rotation like Shake It Off. Because it's meant to be a potent mitigation that can stack with Dark Missionary, using it on cooldown for DPS purposes could leave you short an important defensive tool.
If, absolute best case scenario, someone manages to get the perfect timing down where they're only in the cast and channel animation for the bare minimum amount of time it takes to enable its effects and instantly absorb an instance of raid damage to get back ~90% MP (in a situation where most of the group is already prepped for the huddle, mind), and then breaks out of it without losing more GCDs than necessary, all while the boss is still active? Frankly that just sounds like a skill cap to me.

But if the devs found that it was simply too little risk for too great of a reward, then hey, they can always reduce the barrier value to make it more likely to just kill you outright.

[shao32]

That's very way similar to current Delirium and Quietus spam, something I hate with all my soul, you won't archive nothing if you wanted to make it feel different if every time you use Darkside ends being like using Delirium and having between 2-5 Quietus at the end.
On the other hand o can see problems on apply scourge on aoes due to the gauge limitation, not having it every pull due the recast of carve and how everything takes extra time on dying an pit you in situations where you can't apply the debuff inmidetly so yeah.

Technically PoA don't lose uptime if ppl have his use planed, you can activate the thing for a fraction of second and the mitigation remain for 2-3 seconds so timed represent 0 loss of uptime, DPS is king and considering the current state of the game it would required serious nerfs on many jobs to start even considering Martyr a mitigation asset more valuated by the mitigation than the DPS that considering the MP numbers and the potency of MP skills it's a huge amount of DPS over there so nope, maybe you should consider it give Martyr another round if you really want it being valuated like that.

So in resume don't get me wrong, you rework looks way better that what we have now despite I would love having more similarity's with HW that EW in the downtime.

[CasterSvarog]

I just wanna throw my 2 cents in this discussion, I like the changes they finally brought in the last patch, took way to long but I’m glad it’s happened. But man DRK still has problems and is a job I wanna like more, but the 40 levels I’ve experienced so far just did not impress me at all.

The jobs mitigation options are so rough until you get to level 70 where you’re finally comparable to other tanks. Dark mind is honestly gotta be the worst mitigation in the game because you can’t tell what’s magic damage without extreme testing or outside sources. Taking a look at old skills just swap it out for Shadowskin, same percentage but it’s more useful for dungeons or heck give Oblation at an earlier level, buff it up to something like 15% and give the second stack later.
Oh, and TBN also has its issues because it’s apparently a dps loss if it’s used too much. Which is so dumb honestly because it’s mitigation, something you should always be using.

The rotation itself is just not fun to me. Yeah highest tank dps, big whoop, but almost 3/4 of your rotation is just the 1-2-3 combo + edgy fell cleave sometimes and then for 15 seconds it’s an explosion of oGcd bloat and back to nothing again. It feels like Warrior but with more oGcds and a different coat of paint, that’s honestly disappointing especially because of what I’ve seen and heard from how it used to be in HW.

The Darkside gauge has no reason for existing, I have never seen that thing below 30 seconds outside of pauses between pull. Iirc I heard for every 10 minutes or so you get like 20 minutes of darkside. Honestly Darkside should have some sort of spender to make it more interesting, maybe change it from the blood gauge or something.

Edit: The traits in Endwalker are kind of, insulting I guess. Enhanced unmend just seems pointless and there did not need to be two traits to buff the shadow when one trait would have worked, especially when they’re two levels apart.

And finally, the darkside aura is boring. Like wow a couple of dim red sparks looks real interesting/s. This is a very small one I know but god it’s just super dull, can we have the cool one from the shadow of the lvl 50 fight? Those looked cool.

Been working on a doc with some ideas about a DRK rework for the future, in part inspired by the PvP rework, in part inspired by some of the discussions in this thread, and reiterating a few ideas from a previous writeup I made.

Here, for those interested.
Short version: Less WAR-lite, more "Dark Knight", bunch of QoL things crammed into the nooks and crannies. Change summary at the top.

Gotta give credit, this is pretty cool. Makes the job way more interesting and gives the tanks their own unique play style. GNB with its standard 1-2-3 into Gnashing fang and continuation, PLD with its three melee combos and magic phase, and WAR with its buff management and gauge building. Keeps all the tanks unique compared to the other and I find it really cool.
Plus, its thematic towards the job identity, gaze at the abyss and use its power, but overindulge and fall into its embrace. Plus with stuff like Sole Survivor, the hp punishment from Flood/Shadowbringer isn't that bad of an issue.

[Colt47]

Dark Knight seems to have a more complicated rotation due to some factors in how their gameplay mechanics work and that is likely why it has a hard time with identity. Most jobs have to make a decision between two OGCDs based on timing, but Dark Knight sometimes has to make a choice between using The Blackest Night and keeping their damage buff up while also dealing with timing. Also got legacy defense cooldowns that only work on certain damage types when all the other tanks are moving to strait damage reduction. Intervention, Rampart, Sentinel, raw intuition, and technically sheltron are all strait damage reduction. Heck, I think DRK is the only job that still has skills that do not work against darkness damage.

But mostly, they just got to do something about the burst phase with Delirium since they already have blood weapon. They definitely should only have one burst mode and Blood Weapon lets people speed up what they already do vs taking a completely alternate path through the woods with Delirium.