Dark Knight Megathread

[Lyth]

I know for a fact that there are people that are not 'happy' with where DRK is right now. Is it better than it used to be? Gods yes, but these are mere /necessary/ steps that frankly it's insulting it took so long to add to the class, and there are still very VERY basic changes it should receive in order to be set back to zero in serviceability.

This is before even addressing that DRK right now to many players is just that: serviceable. It does its job well enough, it has a place, it hits high rankings, but gods it's like eating oatmeal by itself. It'll keep you fed, but there's no spice and hardly any flavor.

There's nothing that particularly stands out about the job, it's a middle of the road tank that can't decide what it wants to be so it's just a worse everyone at once with little cohesion. I can't stress enough how important cohesion and job feel is, because if it wasn't SAM players wouldn't be so pissed about Kaiten.

I think that if you're going to take issue with a job's core gameplay loop, then you are obliged to be specific in your feedback. Turning Dark Mind into Rampart isn't going to put 'spice' into DRK. Reducing the acquisition level of Dark Missionary isn't going to give it a defining identity. The reason why complaints like yours are an actual problem is that if the dev team actually decides that the job needs to be reworked but have no useful player feedback on how to do so, we could end up in an even worse state than Stormblood. It's like playing roulette with the job. If you don't know what you want for dinner, stick with the set menu.

[Runeslayer]

I think that if you're going to take issue with a job's core gameplay loop, then you are obliged to be specific in your feedback. Turning Dark Mind into Rampart isn't going to put 'spice' into DRK. Reducing the acquisition level of Dark Missionary isn't going to give it a defining identity. The reason why complaints like yours are an actual problem is that if the dev team actually decides that the job needs to be reworked but have no useful player feedback on how to do so, we could end up in an even worse state than Stormblood. It's like playing roulette with the job. If you don't know what you want for dinner, stick with the set menu.

Alright, since you're clearly not getting it I'll *try* and spell it out clearly one last time. You continuously think my suggestions are in in regards to reworking DRK, but this is untrue. These are changes I think dark knight should receive before I speak AT ALL about what I'd like to see reworked. Why? Because when that discussion does come up, it's free of the remaining jank DRK currently has, we can set it aside as non factors. What I suggested are supposed to be non-contentious nitpicks of the job that pretty much everyone can get behind; dark mind being the only thing that people will be split on, but I feel there is an alternative with letting it be powerful, unique, and more consistent than it's current iteration after some discussion and brainstorming-- again, I am saving rework discussion for when I actually have ideas, for now I would LIKE to at least have the game inform me what is and isn't magic damage so I'm not throwing caution to the wind on whether or not Dark mind will be effective or useless.

All I KNOW right now is I am not satisfied with the way DRK is now, the core rotation doesn't feel great, I don't feel rewarded for playing 'correctly', and I'm not very motivated to optimize my rotation or get better by the classes own merit. Judging by the likes and lack of rebuttal from that post of mine, it seems it's quite a cold take.

[Lyth]

...

You said it yourself. You're unable to articulate what exactly it is that you dislike about the job's gameplay loop. And that's perfectly fine. But if most of the feedback we're providing is 'I don't like this job', then you can't really complain when the devs start ripping out core job features to try to make people happy. Maybe they decide that you don't enjoy the oGCDs, and they just remove Edge and Flood, and turn Darkside into a Storm's Eye combo. And then you come back in complaining about how the job 'feels bad' to play and is constantly being simplified. I don't want to see that happen here.

[RyuDragnier]

You said it yourself. You're unable to articulate what exactly it is that you dislike about the job's gameplay loop. And that's perfectly fine. But if most of the feedback we're providing is 'I don't like this job', then you can't really complain when the devs start ripping out core job features to try to make people happy. Maybe they decide that you don't enjoy the oGCDs, and they just remove Edge and Flood, and turn Darkside into a Storm's Eye combo. And then you come back in complaining about how the job 'feels bad' to play and is constantly being simplified. I don't want to see that happen here.

The problem with the job is that it's too simple...you're spamming a single combo, using Blood moves when ready, and spamming Edge/Flood when you don't need TBN. That's it. There's no complexity, no synergy with the system at all, there's nothing that makes the big hits feel weighty (compared to WAR's Fell Cleaves) or makes it feel like you're actually having to micromanage a bit (PLD, GNB, and even WAR have more complexity). Adding a second GCD combo alone would at least add a little complexity. Making us have to worry about our Darkside timer is another thing that would add some complexity and make it feel like you're actually having to manage multiple things. The vast majority of the oGCDs wouldn't even need to get touched much. The problem with DRK is easy to understand...what's hard is coming up with a solution because there's so many paths you can take the job down to make it better.

[Runeslayer]

You said it yourself. You're unable to articulate what exactly it is that you dislike about the job's gameplay loop. And that's perfectly fine. But if most of the feedback we're providing is 'I don't like this job', then you can't really complain when the devs start ripping out core job features to try to make people happy. Maybe they decide that you don't enjoy the oGCDs, and they just remove Edge and Flood, and turn Darkside into a Storm's Eye combo. And then you come back in complaining about how the job 'feels bad' to play and is constantly being simplified. I don't want to see that happen here.

Unable? No, I simply am not giving feedback in regards to the core rotation of DRK because that is NOT what I am focused on. What I AM focused on are the nitpicks which should have obvious solutions (bring the level range of dark missionary down with heart of light so it's usable in older expac content, change AoEs to weaponskills so skill speed can include them), which have not all been completely ironed out. I am of the mind that those should come first before I sit down and say 'ok, DRK is in such a spot where I can consider in depth exactly what my pain points are with it's overall kit and what I can try to do to fix them to be both engaging and viable', which would take a good amount of brainstorming to get to an agreeable state for most; in the meantime, you have plenty of very interesting suggestions from others in this very thread.

There are very likely not going to be major changes to the job until 6.2 at least, but realistically we likely won't see a rework until 7.0. So why not push for these minor pain points in between where they are far more likely to happen?

You keep thinking my complaints on the core kit are all I'm willing to say of the job from here and expecting the devs to do something with it as if it was meant to be constructive: I am not, I am simply stating my feelings in general. When I DO want to offer suggestions, I will state as such.

But I've indulged you long enough on this matter, you remain convinced I am doing one thing when I am actually doing something else.

[MagiusNecros]

Blood Weapon and Living Dead were much needed QoL changes. Changes that should of happened in Shadowbringers. Living Dead is now usable in all content but is still by far the worst invuln on the basis your self healing only really lasts until you get topped off. Especially when PLD doesn't need the heals, GNB can stack Aurora, Corundum Excog and Warrior has the lowest CD and can pretty much heal itself back up every Bloodwhetting window.

DRK still has a self healing issue, a mitigation issue where TBN is weaker in relation to the TBN competitors and has defensives that only fit niche fights with magic damage which is an old relic from HW. Dark Missionary still at 76 while GNB gets Heart of Light at 64? BRUH.

The only thing DRK has going for it that makes it relevant is burst damage every 2 minutes?

Only time DRK feels amazing was either in HW or right now in PvP. Salted Earth as a defensive CD is sexy. In PvE it's ass garbage.

DRK is stuck in this dilemma on whether it wants to be a Paladin or Warrior and seemingly refuses to be it's own thing. Unless it's PvP where it's this HP spending Lifestealing death machine on wheels.

[Archwizard]

Living Dead is now usable in all content but is still by far the worst invuln

I wouldn't go that far. On paper it's Holmgang but better in every respect, except with a slightly longer cooldown and the (now significantly less threatening) doom clock; the issue is less the comparison of the invulns against one another in a vacuum, and more the holistic kits surrounding them.
The fact that DRK's only sustainability effects are a CD limited to AoE scenarios and a limited window of the invuln itself are hugely disappointing when compared to the other three tanks' myriad responses to activating their invulns, including two that synergize directly with their on-demands.

Salted Earth as a defensive CD is sexy.

I would also point out that this has to be taken with a grain of salt, given the absence of alternative defensive CDs in PVP (aside from "literally stop attacking and try to crawl back to your party before someone breaks your Guard and kills you anyway").

[shao32]

I want the job to be reworked completely despite being ok in performance the current design is using to archive that numbers it's hella awful and I don't wanna touch it even with a stick compared to other jobs the Dev team prefer to work on like that nice example of BLM, a job that is being taken care by Yoship himself bcs is his fav and his main.

DRK got hit by a huge rework in SHB and it was bad, very bad but many argued it was a strong base to build on it, now for what? Enchance unmend? 2 enchanced living shadow? Just a couple of generic oGCD that literally didn't change or improve anything? And a generic change on Delirium that has been done bcs inner release and just make his downtime even more dull? At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you ask if the dev team aren't willing to put any effort on the job gameplay like they do with BLM, PLD, WAR, DRG, Ect ect, jobs they obviously like and put effort on offering a an engaging unique gameplay.

Asking for huge changes on the job is actually more like asking them for put the same development effort and care they put on they fav jobs and stop leaving DRK in the dust as a serviceable knock-off braindead WAR with a bunch of generic oGCD and buffs that keep themselfs.

[HyonaCookie]

I'd rather not see a full rework of DRK. I kinda like having jobs that focus more on weaving and OGCDs rather than GCD combos. Personally, I'd like to see DRK lean more into shield tank and have more MP management.

[shao32]

Ppl that ask for reworks or rework the job themselfs always keep the oGCD nature of the job, they just make it cohesive and add actual mechanics you care of to the gameplay like how the job use to be, extra combos or better say GCD diversity is for kill the dull soul eater combo spam that is visually boring.