Dark Knight Megathread

[Lyth]

'Complexity' doesn't automatically translate into engaging or challenging gameplay. It mainly affects the skill floor, by creating a barrier to entry that's not any more mechanically challenging to execute once you actually understand the rules. If anything, the only reason why MMO designers try to create 'complex' appearing systems is to give players the illusion that they're doing something more skillful and interesting than it actually is on a mechanical level during extended grinds. Do you seriously think that people pontificate on what the next combo is after mashing out the exact same button sequences endlessly until they can do it semi-conscious?

The reason why Heavensward DRK was reworked going into Stormblood was because many players at the time viewed Darkside's MP drain over time as difficult to manage. The system itself was very simple, much moreso than any resource system on subsequent iterations of the job. It's just that were significant consequences attached to not tracking your MP correctly. A lot of the job mechanics that were perceived as 'difficult' and were phased out during and just after Heavensward weren't particularly 'complex'. They just punished you for making mistakes.

Stormblood's two gauge system really only had 'resource juggling' in AoE. Wonder why Bloodspiller never got the Quietus MP restore effect? They never would have allowed it in single target, as much as players would have loved to see otherwise. Game designers tend to shy away from blue-black deck styled infinite resource loops because they're difficult to balance. It doesn't really have anything to do with mechanical difficulty.

[ItsUrBoi]

'Complexity' doesn't automatically translate into engaging or challenging gameplay. It mainly affects the skill floor, by creating a barrier to entry that's not any more mechanically challenging to execute once you actually understand the rules.

This is true for the most part, however the rules that DRK has, are not very clear or logical.

The TBN problem:
->If you want to use TBN to mitigate mechanics ( because since you have no healing, you should use it whenever you figure out it will break, using TBNs advantage of a 15s CD ), you will go into your 1 minute burst or 2 minute burst windows with less MP therefore you will do less Edge of Shadows under raid buffs, resulting in less DPS.
->If you mitigate only when you absolutely have to ( tank busters or you will die otherwise ) or you are about to overcap on MP - then you will need so much healing its going to be a very tedious job on your healers.
->When you wish to mitigate and you are during your burst you have to double weave for 6 GCDs straight. How do you double weave for 6 gcds and weave in 3 mitigation CDs? ( TBN , Oblation, Shadow Wall / Dark Mind )
Of course, you could weave them in earlier but with TBN lasting 7 seconds and Oblation / Dark Mind 10 seconds too it gets close.
->You cannot recover HP as a tank at all. A melee DPS has better sustained healing than you do due to Bloodbath and Second Wind. There are moments when you find yourself at 50% HP, and you are about to take a tank buster and the healers cannot top you off in time. Every other tank except GNB maybe ( who can weave an aurora [ or 2 auroras now ] before, if he is getting low ) can use an ability to ensure he has a decent amount of HP so he doesn't die. On DRK your option is to either invuln or kitchen sink all your cooldowns...

Living Dead is the worst invulnerability right now. In the past when every composition had White mage ( pure healer ) and a shield healer ( Astro/Scholar ) it was fine. Only 1 combination of healers didn't have a white mage. Now... well, the invuln has no advantages other than being comfy to use ( you don't have to time it ). You cannot recover on your own even slightly from it. You cannot avoid dying - and with the great state of White mage, no one is playing white mage.

[baklava151]

'Complexity' doesn't automatically translate into engaging or challenging gameplay.

Meant to say this too, I'm just looking for engaging gameplay, it doesn't necessarily have to be complex.

[ItsUrBoi]

A few ideas I kept thinking upon:
->Dark Mind reduces damage taken by 10%, and converts all shielding received into healing, with a 15% bonus.60 sec CD, 10 sec duration
->TBN loses its MP cost.
If broken, the next Edge/flood heals for potency equal to damage dealt. TBN doesn't grant a free Edge/Flood , instead it buffs them as mentioned to grant healing.
->Enhanced Unmend & Plunge. Grants 10 blood on each Plunge. So it buffs both Unmend and Plunge.
->Living Dead lasts 5 seconds. Walking Dead lasts 15 seconds. You do not lose the invulnerability if healed to full, nor do you lose HP while in Walking Dead.
->Blood Weapon should be on 5 stacks, 2nd AoE button at a lower lvl and Dark Missionary at 70, but these are common place.

These would solve:
->TBN not being tied to damage, allowing more uses, granting some ( still weaker sustain than the other tanks) HP recovery, which can be used in dungeons, while reducing button bloat.
->Edge/Flood allow you to recover HP when desired, acting as on demand healing too if needed. Dark Arts used on Flood of Shadow will help massively in dungeons or AoE sustain.
->Dark Mind acts as a helper for Living Dead, giving you the chance to help with its healing, helping shield healers deal with it, and a bit of damage reduction. More versatility allowing TBN to be a heal if needed instead of a shield.
-> The 10 blood out of combat trait on Plunge is allowing you not to waste 600 mp on Hard Slash pulling with Blood Weapon, ensuring Living Shadow on the 3rd GCD.

What to do with Abyssal Drain and Delirium?
You could have a combo that normally consumes blood ( 25 each action? ), but you can use it for free under Delirum.
Abyssal Drain could just deal slightly more damage ( damage gain on 3 enemies) and instead of heal, marks enemies for 30 seconds. If they die you gain 10% HP, 600 MP per enemy.

[Archwizard]

-snip-

There's a couple interesting ideas here, though some are a bit awkward still and I'm not sure you entirely thought them through.

For instance, you don't cover what happens to Dark Arts or TBN's CD, but say TBN's "not tied to damage". You also have the 10% reduction innately stacked with the barrier on Oblation, making it slightly harder to break the barrier, creating minor anti-synergy with the healing effect you wrote for Edge/Flood.

Dark Mind isn't quite as useful as you would hope for Walking Dead, considering that you're still expecting Shield Healers to use GCDs on a DRK, and the idea of a "helper CD" just means having to burn two CDs for the price of one.
Also, what happens to the "healing Edge/Shadow" interaction when you Dark Mind and Oblation...?

Your Enhanced Unmend only makes a difference in combat once. And only if it's the first action you use it at the start of the pull.
It's also unclear what you mean with this execution, since you mention it's on Plunge rather than on Unmend, which means... what exactly at the start of an encounter and you can only use one of the two to trigger it?
(And forgive me my ignorance, but what's the issue with "wasting 600 MP on Hard Slash" that this fixes? I assume you mean to have Unmend to cycle the first GCD so you can burn Edge/Flood before Blood Weapon, but then you have a double-weave and you'd still "waste" MP from Blood Weapon and... argh my brain.)

Abyssal Drain not healing instantly is also an issue, since even with the heal you wrote on Edge/Flood, it's still our snap heal for W2W.
I could see, however, putting some "Sole Survivor"-esque marker on Carve & Spit if they're going to remain tied together, if for no other reason than to distinguish its effects from AD while maintaining parity based on the encounter, allowing you to choose how you want to use the cooldown for max benefit. Perhaps even folding it into some kind of Excogitation for DRK -- mark an enemy, and if you fall below a certain health threshold, you instantly "counterattack"(!) and drain a large amount of damage from that target to heal yourself. Useful to pair with LD too, much like HoC with Bolide.

Also,

What to do with Abyssal Drain and Delirium?
Delirium can be a combo that normally consumes blood ( 25 each action? ), but you can use it for free under Delirum.

I have no idea what you're saying here.

[ItsUrBoi]

There's a couple interesting ideas here, though some are a bit awkward still and I'm not sure you entirely thought them through.

For instance, you don't cover what happens to Dark Arts or TBN's CD, but say TBN's "not tied to damage". You also have the 10% reduction innately stacked with the barrier on Oblation, making it slightly harder to break the barrier, creating minor anti-synergy with the healing effect you wrote for Edge/Flood.

Dark Mind isn't quite as useful as you would hope for Walking Dead, considering that you're still expecting Shield Healers to use GCDs on a DRK, and the idea of a "helper CD" just means having to burn two CDs for the price of one.
Also, what happens to the "healing Edge/Shadow" interaction when you Dark Mind and Oblation...?

Your Enhanced Unmend only makes a difference in combat once. And only if it's the first action you use it at the start of the pull.

Abyssal Drain not healing instantly is also an issue, since even with the heal you wrote on Edge/Flood, it's still our snap heal for W2W.

Also,

I have no idea what you're saying here.

I updated my post with more details. I wrote it late at night so I am sorry for the misunderstandings.

->TBN not costing MP is there to ensure you can use it on CD and make good use of its 15 sec CD. When TBN breaks, Dark Arts would buff the next Edge/Flood to grant healing equal to damage dealt. This will help in dungeon pulls and offer DRK the option to recover after a tank buster. TBN doesn't grant a free Edge/Flood, it just makes the next ones heal you as mentioned.
->Oblation doesn't have to be a part of TBN. It can be its own ability to grant 15% damage reduction. The reason why I see them being separate is so that you can use TBN and 1 stack of Oblation on yourself, the other stack of Oblation on your other tank.
->Dark Mind shouldn't be 20% specific damage reduction. Take a part of its damage reduction and put it on Oblation ( 10% -> 15 or 20% ? ). DRK has to double weave for 8 GCDs during burst, weaving defenses as well within those GCDs isn't fun, if anything you have to pop them before ( and they don't last too long ) , or you delay your damage. Instead have Dark Mind convert all shielding into healing with a slight bonus. If you need healing instead of a shield you can use TBN and heal yourself for 25% of your max HP. Shield healers can also help you. This will work very well with TBN being free, and allow DRK to deal with auto attacks too ( for which a 7s shield doesn't last long enough for usually ) Your Edge/Flood's healing can be influenced too.
->With TBN costing no MP, you can no longer do:
TBN on yourself / other tank -> BW -> Hard Slash -> Edge + Syphon Strike -> Souleater + Living Shadow. You will lose on 600 MP from BW.
Instead if your plunge grants 10 blood, you can:
Plunge -> Hard Slash -> Edge + BW -> Syphon Strike -> Souleater + Living Shadow. You won't lose on any MP and still get 50 blood.
Or any trait that allows you to get 50 blood at your 3rd GCD is fine I guess.

For the Delirium idea, I just thought that instead of spamming Bloodspiller over and over, you could have another combo that costs blood gauge per action so you use it when you are at >70 and Delirium grants the use of that combo for free.

[Archwizard]

-snip-

Wasn't contesting your reasoning so much as your conclusions.

[ItsUrBoi]

Wasn't contesting your reasoning so much as your conclusions.

Can you elaborate?

[HyperiusUltima]

How would a 1500MP TBN mess up with the MP economy? If anything it'd make it better because you do not have to have 3000MP to mitigate, you only need 1500MP. And you still keep the bonus equal, but its so much more comfy when you need to mitigate, just from the perspective of you have ~4000MP and are doing burst, right now , you cannot use an edge if a tank buster is coming, but with the change you could. And it won't affect your DPS negatively, like it does now.

A reminder that it still has to break. If the shield doesn't break, no Dark Arts. While 1500 MP may not be bad on paper, in general let's say you have the 1500 MP. Usually around the minute mark is 6000 MP. Instead of 3 Edges, you can only do 2 because the cost is 1500, then jumps straight back up to 3000, leaving you with an excess 1500 MP. That's what I mean by it messing up the MP Economy compared to now, where you save your Dark Arts for burst and get value for your 3000 you paid forward for breaking TBN. While this hasn't taken into account Blood Weapon, you still are left with filler MP after that may or may not grant an additional edge over the course of 9m, which needlessly increases the skill ceiling over how accessible the job is currently.

I am pretty sure that having a stronger Oblation ( 15 - 20% ) along with Shadow Wall and being full HP, is enough for a tank buster. Besides , why would you use it when taking a tank buster? Its purpose should be to solve the DRK sustain issue, where you are eaten alive by auto attacks and cannot heal Living Dead ( or even contribute to it ).

That's what your mitigation is for: reducing incoming damage. I think you blew over my suggestion for adding Regen to Oblation, making it close to the same as all the other tanks' since DRK is the only tank without a Mitigative Regen. Just increasing the mitigation won't be enough alone despite wanting it at 15% just like GNB's HoC. While this will not fully heal Living Dead, it will substantially give DRK a tool to mitigate the need for an extortion of a massive amount of MP or Healer Resources merely for a single Invuln. Remember, our issue with Living Dead is putting the yoke on the Healers to save you when there isn't a WHM around(which more and more are swapping from WHM given its current state).

There surely are other ways to deal with this, however I only thought of mentioning the issues I have with DRK as a Savage/Ultimate raider:
-> Too many buttons to mitigate. TBN or Oblation should be enough, and one of them slightly stronger. Having to double weave for 8 GCDs, and also weave in defenses...
-> Having mitigation tied to damage, reduces your current strength , which is dps.
-> Living Dead , Blood Weapon.
-> Dark Mind is ok to mitigate with, but its one more button that offers rotational mitigation, Oblation should do that. Also, you cannot recover from a tank buster. It should address that.

Footnote 1: Too many buttons to mitigate? For a Tank? Gee, look at GNB and tell me how there's too many buttons to mitigate damage? They have to double-weave A LOT harder than DRK does given their kit. If that's too many buttons to mitigate, I think it's more of a personal issue. imho I think DRK has too little mitigation options compared to the other tanks, even with an on-demand TBN every 15s that cracks open like an egg in 3s during trash.

Footnote 2: This we can agree on. People aren't exactly amused with TBN being tied to damage in any way, but it presents itself a skill floor that people have to get through to play DRK effectively and correctly timing your TBN. A majority at least believe it should require no MP, at the very least.

Footnote 3: Getting addressed in the next Live Letter. If they don't change it properly, well...I guess DRK might as well be deleted from the game for some people since they'll just quit the job for one of the other three. We've yet to see, but hopes are not really high given how SE's responded to DRK criticism in the past.

Footnote 4: What is with the obsession with Dark Mind? It's a button that literally is outdated and either A) needs major reform, such as into an upgrade at a certain level, or B) Needs to be pruned and replaced with a general mitigation that can be applied in all scenarios, not just Magic Damage(which is very, very scarce in terms of damage).

[ItsUrBoi]

That's what your mitigation is for: reducing incoming damage. I think you blew over my suggestion for adding Regen to Oblation, making it close to the same as all the other tanks' since DRK is the only tank without a Mitigative Regen.



Footnote 1: Too many buttons to mitigate? For a Tank? Gee, look at GNB and tell me how there's too many buttons to mitigate damage? They have to double-weave A LOT harder than DRK does given their kit. If that's too many buttons to mitigate, I think it's more of a personal issue. imho I think DRK has too little mitigation options compared to the other tanks, even with an on-demand TBN every 15s that cracks open like an egg in 3s during trash.

Footnote 4: What is with the obsession with Dark Mind? It's a button that literally is outdated and either A) needs major reform, such as into an upgrade at a certain level, or B) Needs to be pruned and replaced with a general mitigation that can be applied in all scenarios, not just Magic Damage(which is very, very scarce in terms of damage).

GNB is never forced to double weave in its no mercy burst for more than 3 GCDs, and during Continuation you have a free spot, and when using Double down you can double weave mitigations - DRK just has straight double weaving for 8 GCDs.
GNB's defenses are more condensed. That's what I was trying to aim for addressing. Heart of corondum is a massive damage reduction, aurora is a useful regen and camouflage is there for multiple hits. Dark Mind should be changed because as it is now, its just Oblation but slightly stronger against magic damage. Why should you have 2 buttons that do the exact same thing, when they are only 10% weaker than each other?
I did not dismiss the idea that Oblation should grant a regen, I just thought that creatively speaking, Dark Mind could be replaced with something of the sort, and Oblation buffed to be the short CD DRK has which grants decent damage reduction ( for which you do not need to press 2 buttons, cuz Oblation currently is a laughable 10% ).
I believe that every button should have a purpose and be somewhat meaningful when used, we shouldn't have 2 buttons that do the same thing one only slightly weaker than the other so you use both anyway. That's what Dark Mind and Oblation currently are.
On comparison Warrior's kit synergizes really well - all the buttons have a purpose and while on paper ability for ability some are not so amazing compared to for example TBN, they synergize much better.