Dark Knight Megathread

[Shurrikhan]

While this is intentional on my part, I should mention... TBN is already nigh pointless in AoE.

Wait, wait, wait. TBN is pretty great in AoE unless the DTPS is extremely high (like, beyond that of Expert Roulette unless you stripped off half your armor and hit no other miti, or "would kill in 5 seconds" levels of damage taken per second). It takes a ton of incoming damage over 8 seconds for Shelltron, let alone Heart of Corundum, to produce more mitigation+healing than TBN. It doesn't matter that TBN provides no benefit for the rest of the duration if, over what duration it had, it already put out more value than most competing on-demand CDs.

And even then, because it's guaranteed to break, it will still greatly outperform anything but Bloodwhetting over time because it has only ~3/5s the cooldown of its competitors. In dungeon runs, I typically have higher mitigation+healing on DRK than on any other tank save for Warrior.

I was hoping to phrase it in a way where the MP restored is based on the percentage of your health you would have lost

Heh. This was also a suggestion back in HW for Blood Price, to increase its single-target value beyond the pittance it'd give from its flat MP restore per hit taken. As you've doubtless guessed from my comments on Bloodwhetting, I'm all for better scaling procedures. This sounds cool. And I would take that over a return to the flat MP gen on hit received (which was utterly useless against single, slow-hitting targets but potentially stupidly overpowered against the likes of large Brayflox HM pulls where enemies would rapidly 4x strike in flurries).

I did what I could to clarify it using the phrasing of similar abilities, but the intent of what I wrote is for TBN to take a role more like Intervention or (current) Nascent Flash: it's usable only on an ally, though you continue to reap the benefits of Dark Arts as a consolation for not receiving the MP.

That makes sense, I suppose. I can't say I'm a fan, though, just because it's taking the meatier, more interesting ability and shelving into OT situations alone. (Granted, I also wanted Shelltron and Intervention to be consolidated into a throwback to Aegis Boon, and was glad to see Heart of Stone not get the same button waste.) Just for context, my preference would probably be somewhere along the lines of TBN being a bit less finnicky, Blood Price upgrading into Dread Spikes, and TBN doubling the effect of either while up (such that you'd want to fortify it, so long as that wouldn't be stepping too heavily on the toes of PLD, who, way back in the day, had interactions that'd cause one to want to stack/fortify their effects).

Which is why Blood Spikes is an upgrade to Dread Spikes (a la Raw Intuition->Bloodwhetting, Sheltron->Holy Sheltron, Heart of Stone->Heart of Corundum), rather than just a contribution to bloat.

Whoops. My bad.

...Is it just me, though, or does Dread Spikes sound like the less basic / more intimidating, between the two? (Much like the present upgrades from Darkness to Shadow being kinda... weird.)

TBN is just a overglorified single target Shield on low CD and high MP cost. And TBN is not a excuse for DRK to be as bas as it is currently from a design perspective.

It's a pretty huge shield (if used on a tank) on an kind of absurdly low CD for its role and at variable MP cost (3k or 0). It's also not what has crushed DRK's gameplay. It has never had any impact on Dark Arts, its addition did not require the removal of our old combos or Scourge, and removing it wouldn't give anything back, nor would regaining old features of enjoyable complexity require TBN's removal. You may as well say that Atonement put a gauge cost on Cover or that Nascent Chaos removed Warrior's higher passive HP. That something popped up after something else was removed (and for TBN, that was only the removal of Scourge and Delirium combo) does not mean it was responsible for, nor given as an excuse for, those removals.

[Archwizard]

That makes sense, I suppose. I can't say I'm a fan, though, just because it's taking the meatier, more interesting ability and shelving into OT situations alone. (Granted, I also wanted Shelltron and Intervention to be consolidated into a throwback to Aegis Boon, and was glad to see Heart of Stone not get the same button waste.)

Agree to disagree here. I'm all for the idea of a tank having the options of a personal mitigation effect that's more attuned to their own specific needs and playstyle (like increasing life leech and MP return), and an off-tank effect that's more general use given playstyles that might not want those same effects -- a Paladin can raise his shield in his own defense, but can't exactly hand it off to someone else. A Warrior can shrug off pain, but maybe doesn't want to help someone else do that who is empowered by it, like DRK.
There are plenty of ways to make them both equally interesting and viable, and if anything this dodges DRK being reduced to tossing a bland mitigation skill on an ally.

Plus, it's a bit of an aesthetic thing on my part. As I said before, I see DRK as a tank whose use of barrier magic would extend more to the defense of an allied charge for lack of any other means to defend them... since for his own purposes, he has no qualms about using foul magic to sustain himself on the literal blood of his enemies while dishing out immediate and brutal justice upon the wicked.

Think Sidurgu. Takes sadistic joy in smashing in corrupt Temple Knight faces while arguing it's for the betterment of the common folk, tons of mileage to be had out of Drain magic. Probably would not want to subject Rielle to healing through vampirism though since that would offend her sensibilities; just gonna put her in a bubble.

TL;DR: TBN ain't edgy enough.

[Lyth]

You don't look at tanks in isolation. WAR/DRK was better than WAR/PLD. Both of these were vastly better than DRK/PLD. And if you were running solo tank, WAR was what you went with, as was seen during Creator speedruns towards the end of Heavensward. I don't buy your point about buffs because both WAR and DRK brought two useful buffs. And if you're talking about outgearing content, the only one that is truly mandatory is Eye, which you generally want your WAR to be applying, not your NIN.

MT/OT designations were obsolete in Heavensward. WAR wanted to line up defensives like RI/Vengeance with their burst windows and had lengthy pre-pull timers to set up their initial burst. It made a lot more sense for WAR to open since they would be burning their defensive cooldowns anyways during that time period, and there was usually an early tankbuster that synced up well with this. You could just provoke whenever that was over to free them up. This was also back when Holmgang was on a three minute recast, which easily sealed the deal for WAR having the most powerful defensive kit. Even in a fight like A12S which is pretty much designed for DRK, it made sense to temporarily swap out to take advantage of WAR's robust cooldown set when they were going into a burst phase.

There was a fair amount of experimentation with double WAR around when Midas was active. I think the comps in general were more varied during that tier because it was the most mechanics focused.

There's a lot of misinformation that gets posted about older expansions. It's like a game of telephone, where you hear something that someone else told you from memory, and it gets more and more further removed from the truth with each retelling.

[Monochromatic]

There's a lot of ideas for a rework, instead of just a revert. Bring back the glory days of Dark Knight and balance it again from there, the game is at a point for tanks where it's completely feasible. Paladins need the rework more to compete if this happens since Warrior has a solid place and Gunbreaker only requires a bit better rotation timing buff to swap offense/defense better (or just slightly more offense potency).

DRK players will be happy. Paladin players will, to my knowledge, also be happy for a soft rework since their class is either hit or miss depending on an encounter as it is right now. DRK's hit or miss can at least be instantly solved with a revert and then retooling of rotations or potencies.

[ItsUrBoi]

A far as my experience and knowledge go the problem with current DRK is the fact that it doesn't have anything special going for it in its kit. Paladin is the slow , GCD tank with a full "rotation. GNB is the off GCD tank cuz it weaves to a some may say restrictive degree ( which is understandable, you cannot double weave defenses during continuation, but you can use defenses before thanks to their duration ) and Warrior is the big burst tank.
DRK is a combination between warrior ( fill gauge, use gauge on Bloodspiller ) and every 2 minutes spam every OGCD you have under raid buffs. Flood doesn't feel different to Shadowbringer. Living Shadow is a "cool" DoT. DarkSide and Blackblood do not interact in any way - the class just uses 5 or 6 edges and refreshes a resource wasting ~27secs of it since its capped at 60.
-> A suggestion would be to make it the fast paced GCD tank with augmenting abilities! Having a tank with ~2.08 GCD would feel unique to the job.
-> Bring back Dark Arts under the form of something with a CD of like ~5 seconds to augment ability potencies/effects and a slightly better animation ( people loved Paladin due to the beautifully looking animations ), its cost being DarkSide.
-> Living Shadow could be at early levels what it is now, but at later levels ( 90? ) it could merge with the player , granting a permanent DarkArts during its duration.
-> Passively DarkSide could grant SkS. ( if its active you get SkS )
-> Scourge could be a cool way to grant us another combo or keep it as an OGCD.
-> Delirium could not be just Inner Release. It can be give 3 stacks of DarkArts. The old Delirium animation could be used for another powerful ability costing DarkArts to be even used.
-> Actions could be separated into actions that are always available but enhanced by DarkArts ( HardSlash -> Syphon Strike -> SoulEater , Bloodspiller, Quietus, Edge/Flood ), and actions which are only available with DarkArts ( Scourge? , old Delirium animation, PowerSlash, Spinning Slash , Carnal Chill, Tar Pit )
-> TBN could be the 25% shield we all like, but without MP cost, on a 25 sec CD, granting 1 DarkArts stack if broken.
-> Dark Mind could just be removed ( and as compensation a buff to Oblation could be given where first 4 secs its 15% dmg reduction, next 4 secs, 10% ) and replaced with "Sole Survivor" this time granting Blood, HP and MP upon death of enemy or effect running out.

Under DarkArts, Edge/Flood could heal for a certain amount , Bloodspiller/Quietus could just do more dmg and have a more impressive animation.
So the overall feel and loop of the job would be to use as much Edge/Flood to fill DarkSide, spend DarkSide on DarkArts ( btw breaking TBN could give you 1 free Darkside ), spend DarkArts on either special actions or on augmenting normal actions -> go into ur burst under Living Shadow where you always have DarkArts, spend Blackblood on Bloodspiller/Quietus.

[Shurrikhan]

-> TBN could be the 25% shield we all like, but without MP cost, on a 25 sec CD, granting 1 DarkArts stack if broken.

This sounds... so much worse. The punishment for failing to break the shield would be the same, a lost Edge/Flood, but now you'd have a 67% longer cooldown atop that. Moreover, we'd now have to balance our potency-per-minute budget around the possibility of getting off an extra 2.4 Edge/Floods per minute since they'd be free, at best, rather than merely refunded.

Essentially, we'd lose damage for not having at least two perfectly-timed opportunities per minute to pop TBN, rather than solely losing damage (beyond some scant average of <20 potency) only when we use TBN at an outright wrong time.

This would be objectively a hefty nerf once balanced around.

If you want to homogenize TBN, so be it, but strip the DA proc off it before your suggestion forces a ppm nerf in 95+% of all serious content (all while badly constraining its available timings).

[ItsUrBoi]

How about 25 blood gained instead? Or perhaps if broken or upon effect expiration you heal for 10% of max hp?

[Anhra]

If i had to make suggestions on how to improve DRK for good, it would be kind of like this:

Bloodweapon: 15sec Duration and also grants Lifesteal and increased Mana Gain to cover for TBN.

Delirium: removed and replaced by Dark Arts (which works like Sages Eukrasia, which could upgrade DRK's Spells and like Edge-/ Flood of Darkness into Bloodspiller/ Shadowbringer), but comes at 3k MP costs.

Replace Unmend with a Spell on a a 1-1,5sec cast time but weak Potency (upgradeable via Dark Arts)

Removal of TBN and replace it with something like a Parry Skill that works kind of like third eye from SAM, if you get hit, you gain a free Bloodweapon.

Carve & spit and Abyssal Drain no longer sharing CD.

Dark Missionary removed and replaced by a new Skill

Living Dead having reduced Heal threshold at like 50% but you gotta heal yourself for this (new Skills should cover for this if Bloodweapon isnt able to)

[Kalaam]

TBN is too central to be removed now, better build upon it than remove it.

[Vatom]

TBN is too central to be removed now, better build upon it than remove it.

people said this about dark arts and 90% of HW drk abilities lost

Its not a matter of can or can't due to players being use to it

Its a matter of is it worth keeping it or worth dropping