Dark Knight Megathread

[Crater]

We'll agree to disagree with TBN, I don't know how getting rid of the mana cost on an ability you ideally only use once a minute (to avoid dps loss outside of raid buffs) and upping the cd to be in line with the other tanks CD's is a "Nerf" but thats besides the point.

If you understand the theory that using TBN more than once per minute is a DPS loss because it drags an Edge outside of raid buffs, then you should realize that removing the Dark Arts charge entirely is automatically a nerf in a DPS-optimized scenario because it means you can't shift an Edge from your 60s window to your 120s window. Realistically though, we should also recognize that "You can only use it once per minute" is a bit of an outdated viewpoint, because the only 60s raid buff is Trick Attack, and Ninja isn't exactly mandatory these days. Realistically, it's more like "You can use TBN all you want on every odd-numbered minute, but you want to use it exactly once on every even-numbered minute."

(There is a problem with the skill there, in that DPS optimization does require that you limit your usages of TBN when you should be encouraged to use it as often as possible in situations where it will break, but the solution to that is to allow the storage of multiple charges, not to remove the interaction entirely.)

However, outside of DPS-optimized scenarios, where we only need consider its defensive properties, TBN's most valuable trait is its shorter, 15-second recast compared to the other tank skills. In a sustained-damage situation, like a dungeon pull, TBN's shield is roughly equivalent to a 1500 potency shield. On a 15s recast, the mitigation throughput there is roughly 100p/sec. What you are asking for is an 800 potency HoT to be added to it, in exchange for increasing the cooldown to 25s. That reduces its mitigation throughput to 92p/sec, including the heal. That is an enormous loss of power in those sustained-damage situations.

On top of that, you're asking for the heal to come in the least useful form possible: a weak, 200p/tick HoT. If we're talking about a tankbuster situation rather than sustained incoming damage, that 200p HoT is going to do exactly as much to save you from any followup damage as the current version of TBN. The useful version of what you're asking for, which is still a nerf, is an instant 800 potency heal. But that's not even an area where TBN even needs help; healing and shielding are both flat-value mitigation/recovery mechanics, and in terms of flat-value mitigation/recovery, TBN is already very strong, at roughly 1500 equivalent potency to HoC's 900 and Holy Sheltron's 1000, though Bloodwhetting definitely rules that particular roost at 2000.

Because of that high amount of flat-value mitigation, TBN acquits itself quite well against incoming damage that lands in the range of 40-60% of your max HP (which, realistically, is the most relevant tank damage in high-end content, because it tends to come while the healers are busy with their own mechanics or party healing, instead of the fight grinding to a halt for a very slow, telegraphed heavy tankbuster to come in). On a per-use basis, it tends to be marginally more effective than the other skills at the point of impact, then marginally less effective once the other skills' healing has come in. This is already completely fair and in-line with the other tank skills, because that 'marginally less effective in total' drawback is more than made up for by the lower 15-second cooldown.

Where TBN does fall short, in comparison to the other tank skills, is against the kind of extremely-heavy tankbuster - something dealing 90-120% of your max HP after Rampart, Shadow Wall, etc - where flat-value mitigation and healing has relatively little value. In those cases, TBN does fall massively behind the other skills, but the solution is not to give it more flat-value mitigation and healing, but rather to pair it with the percentage-based mitigation that gives the other skills their huge advantage to begin with. This is the purpose of Oblation, except Oblation is too weak. The solution here isn't to change TBN, but the change Oblation to make it better at shoring up this particular weakness of TBN.

Ultimately, there's little value to be gained in adding a HoT to TBN, and the skill is mostly just fine the way it is (aside from needing to allow you to store multiple DA charges), offering unique gameplay from the other tanks' equivalent skills, with a healthy balance of advantages and disadvantages that make it sometimes-better, sometimes-worse than its counterparts. That's what balance in game design is supposed to look like, and it's what we should be encouraging and asking for more of.
In the one area where TBN falls so short that it's unfit for purpose, it has a companion skill meant to help it through: Oblation - except that Oblation is meant to make TBN feel powerful in those scenarios, but is so weak itself that it only manages to make TBN feel slightly-less-weak. Oblation absolutely should get a buff (or more involved rework) that makes it effective enough to serve its purpose when paired with TBN.


But, no, it should absolutely not be changed into a risk-free skill with a slightly more potent effect in exchange for a massive nerf to its strongest and most useful point, it's short recast time. If that's what you want out of a tank, three out of four of the tanks in this game are already giving you exactly what you're asking for. You don't need all of them to cater to your specific tastes at the expense of those of us who prefer this skill the way it is.

I agree with this sooooo much and honestly I feel that many that are calling for TBN to just be turned into a 25 second recast defensive with no MP cost are just repeating what others, particularly a certain popular streamer, have said without really stopping to think about what the ripple effects of such changes would result in.

Yeah, the fact that these bandwagon ideas are catching on so much and seem to just be oblivious to the actual effects of what they're asking for is really alarming.

Ignoring playstyle issues in favour of talking about efficacy - and my position has always been that post-5.0 DRK has had playstyle issues, but not efficacy ones - Dark Knight's current position is probably best described as 'in a decent spot, but its position there is precarious'. It's definitely been shortchanged in a handful of key places, and it has some legitimate QoL issues, but it also has some pretty strong advantages that make it uniquely well-suited to tanking certain parts of the current raid tier, and many of these common suggestions are people basically explicitly asking for those advantages to be nerfed and taken away in exchange for miniscule improvements to convenience and basically fixing Xeno's personal pet peeves.

What a lot of people actually seem to want is a glamour prism that lets you play Warrior with a Dark Knight skin on top and all your skills nerfed by 5%.

[Ryaduera]

If you understand the theory that using TBN more than once per minute is a DPS loss because it drags an Edge outside of raid buffs, then you should realize that removing the Dark Arts charge entirely is automatically a nerf in a DPS-optimized scenario because it means you can't shift an Edge from your 60s window to your 120s window. Realistically though, we should also recognize that "You can only use it once per minute" is a bit of an outdated viewpoint, because the only 60s raid buff is Trick Attack, and Ninja isn't exactly mandatory these days. Realistically, it's more like "You can use TBN all you want on every odd-numbered minute, but you want to use it exactly once on every even-numbered minute."

(There is a problem with the skill there, in that DPS optimization does require that you limit your usages of TBN when you should be encouraged to use it as often as possible in situations where it will break, but the solution to that is to allow the storage of multiple charges, not to remove the interaction entirely.)

However, outside of DPS-optimized scenarios, where we only need consider its defensive properties, TBN's most valuable trait is its shorter, 15-second recast compared to the other tank skills. In a sustained-damage situation, like a dungeon pull, TBN's shield is roughly equivalent to a 1500 potency shield. On a 15s recast, the mitigation throughput there is roughly 100p/sec. What you are asking for is an 800 potency HoT to be added to it, in exchange for increasing the cooldown to 25s. That reduces its mitigation throughput to 92p/sec, including the heal. That is an enormous loss of power in those sustained-damage situations.

Not necessarily true. See, an often overlooked aspect of self healing abilities is when the healing is applied and the intention behind it. You don't use Blood Whetting at full HP in trash pulls for this reason. Other cooldowns stacked on top of a HoT make it more valuable. So while it would, on paper, be less potent after the heal, the healing itself changes value based on the situation. As an example, right now DRK is parsing higher than GNB in healing, but nobody feels like it actually is. That's because the healing that DRK is doing matters significantly less. I am, however, still against adding a HoT to TNB because there is an issue that would cause portions of the heal to entirely go to waste. If you use TBN at full HP and it breaks, the first tick is overheal. Assuming you had mitigation on, the damage you are taking must bring you below the heal value in order to actually be effective in the first place. (This is what I meant by it changes on the situation.) Even though timed healing can be incredibly valuable, you aren't actually timing this heal most of the time, it does not change the way the skill is used at all, keeping all the same flaws but on a longer cooldown.

On top of that, you're asking for the heal to come in the least useful form possible: a weak, 200p/tick HoT. If we're talking about a tankbuster situation rather than sustained incoming damage, that 200p HoT is going to do exactly as much to save you from any followup damage as the current version of TBN. The useful version of what you're asking for, which is still a nerf, is an instant 800 potency heal. But that's not even an area where TBN even needs help; healing and shielding are both flat-value mitigation/recovery mechanics, and in terms of flat-value mitigation/recovery, TBN is already very strong, at roughly 1500 equivalent potency to HoC's 900 and Holy Sheltron's 1000, though Bloodwhetting definitely rules that particular roost at 2000.

Because of the same reasons above, a flat value would be pretty bad except for against tank busters. When it comes to how tanks handle tank busters the only thing that matters is the condition of the tank after it has happened. There's three stages to any buster. Preparing to take the damage, actually getting hit, and recovering from it. The only stage that matters in terms of tank balancing is what the tank looks like after stage 3. Dead? Bad. Low HP? Not as bad, but not great. High HP? Good. If you dropped to 1 hp but lived and a heal kicked in and got you to 50% within 3 seconds, you dealt with it better than the tank that got dropped to 10% hp.

Because of that high amount of flat-value mitigation, TBN acquits itself quite well against incoming damage that lands in the range of 40-60% of your max HP (which, realistically, is the most relevant tank damage in high-end content, because it tends to come while the healers are busy with their own mechanics or party healing, instead of the fight grinding to a halt for a very slow, telegraphed heavy tankbuster to come in). On a per-use basis, it tends to be marginally more effective than the other skills at the point of impact, then marginally less effective once the other skills' healing has come in. This is already completely fair and in-line with the other tank skills, because that 'marginally less effective in total' drawback is more than made up for by the lower 15-second cooldown.

Where TBN does fall short, in comparison to the other tank skills, is against the kind of extremely-heavy tankbuster - something dealing 90-120% of your max HP after Rampart, Shadow Wall, etc - where flat-value mitigation and healing has relatively little value. In those cases, TBN does fall massively behind the other skills, but the solution is not to give it more flat-value mitigation and healing, but rather to pair it with the percentage-based mitigation that gives the other skills their huge advantage to begin with. This is the purpose of Oblation, except Oblation is too weak. The solution here isn't to change TBN, but the change Oblation to make it better at shoring up this particular weakness of TBN.

Following the philosophy of a tanks measure being by how they deal with damage (Reduction, Healing, and Shielding are all forms of tanking) most tools in every other tanks kit are actually more effective in anything as little as 70% of the tanks hp. In the case of HoC and Bloodwhetting, you may end up with lower HP immediately after the hit, but healing yourself immediately after more than compensates and leaves you at a greater hp value than TBN would have. In my opinion, TBN is only ever ideal in a scenario where the other tank has stacked their unique cd on you as well.

Ultimately, there's little value to be gained in adding a HoT to TBN, and the skill is mostly just fine the way it is (aside from needing to allow you to store multiple DA charges), offering unique gameplay from the other tanks' equivalent skills, with a healthy balance of advantages and disadvantages that make it sometimes-better, sometimes-worse than its counterparts. That's what balance in game design is supposed to look like, and it's what we should be encouraging and asking for more of.
In the one area where TBN falls so short that it's unfit for purpose, it has a companion skill meant to help it through: Oblation - except that Oblation is meant to make TBN feel powerful in those scenarios, but is so weak itself that it only manages to make TBN feel slightly-less-weak. Oblation absolutely should get a buff (or more involved rework) that makes it effective enough to serve its purpose when paired with TBN.

I agree adding a heal to TBN would be pretty bad because the heal would almost never be fully utilized outside of high damage scenarios, in which percentage mitigation is just better in every way. However, consider we as a collective stop treating TBN like it's meant to be HoC/Intervention/Nascent and treat Oblation like this? Fix the clunkiness and bizarre DPS-entwined awkward design choice of TBN by making it never actually be a DPS loss simply by giving a charge on expiration as well. Then it's fixed and can be used to gain Dark Arts stacks (plural assuming multiple charges) to use in a burst window with raid buffs for an actual increase. Then bring Oblation to a point where it can compete with the other skills. A 60 second recharge is not a 60 second cooldown, it's more akin to a 30 second cooldown. To me, this is the skill people should be comparing. If I heal were attached to Oblation, for example, the heal could be used with intent, making it more valuable.

But, no, it should absolutely not be changed into a risk-free skill with a slightly more potent effect in exchange for a massive nerf to its strongest and most useful point, it's short recast time. If that's what you want out of a tank, three out of four of the tanks in this game are already giving you exactly what you're asking for. You don't need all of them to cater to your specific tastes at the expense of those of us who prefer this skill the way it is.

I loathe entirely when people argue TBN recasting time is it's strongest point. It's recast time is not only tied to your MP regeneration, but in order to argue this it has to actually want to be used off cooldown, which it is not. Its uptime is nowhere near it's cooldown outside of maybe 2% of this games content. It's cooldown means little to nothing if you don't use it off cooldown, which is a guaranteed DPS loss.

Yeah, the fact that these bandwagon ideas are catching on so much and seem to just be oblivious to the actual effects of what they're asking for is really alarming.

Ignoring playstyle issues in favour of talking about efficacy - and my position has always been that post-5.0 DRK has had playstyle issues, but not efficacy ones - Dark Knight's current position is probably best described as 'in a decent spot, but its position there is precarious'. It's definitely been shortchanged in a handful of key places, and it has some legitimate QoL issues, but it also has some pretty strong advantages that make it uniquely well-suited to tanking certain parts of the current raid tier, and many of these common suggestions are people basically explicitly asking for those advantages to be nerfed and taken away in exchange for miniscule improvements to convenience and basically fixing Xeno's personal pet peeves.

What a lot of people actually seem to want is a glamour prism that lets you play Warrior with a Dark Knight skin on top and all your skills nerfed by 5%.

No, what we actually have right now is already a Warrior with Dark Knight Glamour. We only want cohesion and consistency... and a tank invuln that doesn't kill you.

I get the nostalgia value, but do we really want to use up a button to have a 2-minute cooldown... that gives less than a TBN's worth of healing (not shielding, healing), and requires the enemy's death for full effect?

We've so many other ways to build in healing on demand. We don't need to make it badly constrained by both cooldown and conditions.

/agreed on most other notes in that list

Put Sole Survivor on Oblation, perhaps? Heals the DRK + the target the DRK used Oblation on? Idk just a thought.

EDIT: I kind of recall there was a translation error in the early stages of Heavensward release and the English speaking world thought that Sole Survivor only healed the DRK if an ally died, an interesting thought that could be riffed off of maybe... If Target of Oblation dies DRK gets both heals.

[TouchandFeel]

... that's a massive, uncalled-for nerf to TBN ...

I agree with this sooooo much and honestly I feel that many that are calling for TBN to just be turned into a 25 second recast defensive with no MP cost are just repeating what others, particularly a certain popular streamer, have said without really stopping to think about what the ripple effects of such changes would result in.

Asides from homogenizing the tank jobs even more, something that the forums love to at the same time rail against, such a change would actually greatly hurt DRK defensively in the very place that people feel DRK is currently the weakest, namely in large dungeon pulls. It is the ability to be able to use TBN every 15s that keeps DRK standing in that situation. If you force it to be every 25s, you will quickly find yourself not being able to cover the now longer time between TBNs and will likely end up dying way more than now. Even an extra regen or the like tacked onto the end of TBN will not be enough to compensate. The much shorter recast is a HUGE strength of TBN, greatly increasing its' defensive capabilities in mass dungeon pulls and providing more flexibility of use and timing in single-target fights.

Is anyone asking for this really stopping and thinking about what the problem they are trying to solve is?
The argument is that a defensive shouldn't be tied to a resource that is also used for dps.
Okay, why is that a problem?
The proposed problem is that it could be a potential dps loss if the shield doesn't break.
Okay, so then is the problem the reliance on MP to use or the shield not potentially breaking?

And that is where I see the disconnect is, that people have lost sight of what the actual problem they are trying to solve is and instead are proposing bandwagon solutions that aren't accurately aimed at the actual issue.
If the duration of the TBN shield is running out before the shield breaks, just have the duration increased. If 7s is too short, ask to have it it last 10s. If it is still not breaking after that, the damage input is probably low enough that you probably wouldn't want to even waste an Oblation on it.

If keeping enough MP in reserve for when you need a TBN is too much of a hassle, why are you playing a job more based around resource management?

I'm all for equitability between the tank jobs and constantly champion such here on the forums, but nuking what is probably DRKs' most interesting and unique aspect just to put in place an easy and overly comfortable solution that far oversteps what the actual problem was instead of just simply directly addressing it is, imo, not the way to go.

[Mieck]

There are 1900 posts in this thread. There is no earthly way I was able to commit to reading all of that. So, if this has been suggested before, apologies. I've levelled DRK 8 times across various characters and versions (hey, what can I say? NG+ is a relatively recent addition, and there was only one way to replay plot before then!)

My thoughts on improving TBN is to add a trait at 82, same as all the other tanks, called Dread Spikes. I would also move Oblation to earlier in the levelling process, since I do feel DRK could use some extra mitigation prior to TBN. If it comes at the cost of a lower effect which is later upgraded, fine.


Anyway! Dread Spikes! As an FF11 player, this was one of my favourite DRK spells back then. Simply put, I'd get the broken shield of TBN to apply Dread Spikes to the target for some duration, and any enemy that hits the target in that timeframe would damage themselves and the target would absorb a portion of that damage as HP. I know it's conceptually a little similiar to current Warrior territory, but it is flipped to the degree that the enemy continues to kill themselves on your Dread Spikes, and you get better as a result. I'd probably also get the effect to wear off after a little less % than the shield was worth has been absorbed. Improved sustain, keep the DA proc for Flood / Edge so that you are still getting usage out of applying TBN to other party members in OT situations, and you're still spending something for the mitigation, but slip over into being DPS positive due to the Dread Spikes damage on all targets hitting you.

[WhyAmIHere]

There are 1900 posts in this thread. There is no earthly way I was able to commit to reading all of that.

That sounds a lot like som--
[MESSAGE REDACTED]

[Mekhana]

Aside from busters or raids though, there really isn't that much homogenization.

You got Warrior that can already solo savage raids and primals from SB and do 3 DPS speedruns of expert dungs. You got Paladin that can keep the whole party alive in dungeons if the healer DCs even through bosses.

Meanwhile you have DRK and GNB that can just whack things and nearly reach DNC level dps.

[RyuDragnier]

Let me say what removing the MP cost to TBN, its connection to Flood/Edge, and increasing the cooldown to 25s will do. It will remove the DPS being connected to TBN, it will remove the need to hold onto a resource for TBN when only PLD (who arguably has nothing else to use theirs on) is the only other job who uses a resource for this. It will remove the need to ignore every other problem on DRK because TBN, while still powerful with these changes, will not be usable all the time, thus highlighting the problems DRK has without it and making it easier to actually adjust the job. If one ability is the sole reason your job isn't getting meaningful changes, then I'm sorry, the ability has to be adjusted or removed for the good of the job.

[Deathshiro]

Let me say what removing the MP cost to TBN, its connection to Flood/Edge, and increasing the cooldown to 25s will do. It will remove the DPS being connected to TBN, it will remove the need to hold onto a resource for TBN when only PLD (who arguably has nothing else to use theirs own) is the only other job who uses a resource for this. It will remove the need to ignore every other problem on DRK because TBN, while still powerful with these changes, will not be usable all the time, thus highlighting the problems DRK has without it and making it easier to actually adjust the job. If one ability is the sole reason your job isn't getting meaningful changes, then I'm sorry, the ability has to be adjusted or removed for the good of the job.

This essentially. Maybe then it would highlight the problem that is Dark Mind, and maybe we'd get an adjustment so that it works on all damage (and maybe brought down to 15% all damage mitigation?). All in all TBN in its current state has been plaguing the jobs design for too long imo & I'd take any change to its current design that goes away from it being tied to a damage resource.

[TouchandFeel]

Let me say what removing the MP cost to TBN, its connection to Flood/Edge, and increasing the cooldown to 25s will do. It will remove the DPS being connected to TBN, it will remove the need to hold onto a resource for TBN when only PLD (who arguably has nothing else to use theirs own) is the only other job who uses a resource for this.

But why does that even matter? Why does DRK have to have this aspect of its game-play, arguably its most unique aspect, be just like the other tanks when it can be just as effective staying pretty much the same as it is?
I find it absolutely mind boggling how often I see players lambast and rant about homogenization and then turn around and ask for more of it.

With how scripted the fights are, it's easy to plan your resource usage so that you have a TBN in your pocket for a buster. It's also not that hard to keep from using MP spenders to the point of emptying your MP pool.
Again, I ask, if you don't like that kind of game-play, then why are you playing a job based more on resource management?

It will remove the need to ignore every other problem on DRK because TBN, while still powerful with these changes, will not be usable all the time, thus highlighting the problems DRK has without it and making it easier to actually adjust the job.

So we get to the real crux of the argument. You simply want to diminish TBN, knowing that it will make DRK worse, just so that you can then in turn point to DRK and say "see DRK is bad, make these changes that I want because it will fix the problems". In the end all you are really doing is trying to get something to break, so that you can declare it broken in an attempt to have it be swapped out with what you want.
Also any supposed issues that would magically be exposed by limiting TBN are issues that were created by those very changes. Actual existing issues are already apparent, if they weren't there wouldn't be the vast number of threads and posts talking about them.
Blaming TBN like this is simply scapegoating. People want certain changes and are not getting them, and so want someone and something to blame to make it easier to rationalize, and TBN was an easy target with how prominent it is in DRKs' kit.

If one ability is the sole reason your job isn't getting meaningful changes, then I'm sorry, the ability has to be adjusted or removed for the good of the job.

Where is the objective proof that this is the case, that TBN is somehow stymieing all potential meaningful change for DRK?
I have only ever seen such sentiment from suppositional quips and arguments by players, much like the the one that you are making, and then people repeating such over and over until they believe it to be true.

Yeah, the fact that these bandwagon ideas are catching on so much and seem to just be oblivious to the actual effects of what they're asking for is really alarming.

Ignoring playstyle issues in favour of talking about efficacy - and my position has always been that post-5.0 DRK has had playstyle issues, but not efficacy ones - Dark Knight's current position is probably best described as 'in a decent spot, but its position there is precarious'. It's definitely been shortchanged in a handful of key places, and it has some legitimate QoL issues, but it also has some pretty strong advantages that make it uniquely well-suited to tanking certain parts of the current raid tier, and many of these common suggestions are people basically explicitly asking for those advantages to be nerfed and taken away in exchange for miniscule improvements to convenience and basically fixing Xeno's personal pet peeves.

While somewhat alarming, I am not at all surprised. I mean we have both been trying to push back against stuff like this for a few expacs at this point, consistently giving the warning "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it" and of course having such warnings fall on deaf ears.

I too agree that DRK is "functional" at a base level but is a bit behind in some places relative to the other tanks, and that it's biggest problems are QoL issues and a lack of depth in game-play, particularly the offensive game-play.
I just wish that people would see that creating problems where they don't necessarily exist is what actually takes focus off of the legitimate issues and not an easy scapegoat like TBN.

... allow you to store multiple DA charges ...

I have been wanting and asking for that since they first made the change to TBN and Dark Arts.
Devs, please please please do this. The added flexibility and resource management strategy that it would provide would so easily outweigh any effort it would take to implement. Want to stop the Enhanced Unmend memeing? I can recommend a great trait replacement.

[RyuDragnier]

But why does that even matter? Why does DRK have to have this aspect of its game-play, arguably its most unique aspect, be just like the other tanks when it can be just as effective staying pretty much the same as it is?
I find it absolutely mind boggling how often I see players lambast and rant about homogenization and then turn around and ask for more of it.

With how scripted the fights are, it's easy to plan your resource usage so that you have a TBN in your pocket for a buster. It's also not that hard to keep from using MP spenders to the point of emptying your MP pool.
Again, I ask, if you don't like that kind of game-play, then why are you playing a job based more on resource management?

Bringing the cooldown in line with the other tank main cooldowns isn't a bad thing, and it isn't TBN's only unique aspect. Look at Bloodwhetting's mitigation with healing per hit, HoC's barrier with Excog, Holy Shelltron's block and HoT. None are the same as TBN.

The problem with TBN is simply that you WANT it to pop, something you want no other shield to do in the game. If it doesn't pop, it's wasted MP because it's attached to your damage output due to being the same cost as Edge/Flood, something no other tank deals with. You can plan your resources, but all it takes is damage being mitigated a little too much, and then the shield will not pop, meaning you wasted MP that could have gone into an attack.

This is something I probably wouldn't be so angry about if the other tanks had similar issues, such as if Bloodwhetting required 50 gauge, HoC required a cartridge, and there were offensive moves that used gauge on PLD. Because at least then all the tanks would be dealing with the same issue of having to keep resources ready to use their unique cooldowns.

So we get to the real crux of the argument. You simply want to diminish TBN, knowing that it will make DRK worse, just so that you can then in turn point to DRK and say "see DRK is bad, make these changes that I want because it will fix the problems". In the end all you are really doing is trying to get something to break, so that you can declare it broken in an attempt to have it be swapped out with what you want.
Also any supposed issues that would magically be exposed by limiting TBN are issues that were created by those very changes. Actual existing issues are already apparent, if they weren't there wouldn't be the vast number of threads and posts talking about them.
Blaming TBN like this is simply scapegoating. People want certain changes and are not getting them, and so want someone and something to blame to make it easier to rationalize, and TBN was an easy target with how prominent it is in DRKs' kit.

No, it's a case of that either all or none of the tanks need to be using their resources for both damage and defense. Right now only DRK does this, and it does not feel good for DRK (on top of our other issues like Dark Mind and a lack of kit synergy, WHICH WE HAD BACK IN HW).

I'm blaming TBN btw, only because every single person uses it as an excuse for why we can't get anything. Any time somebody asks for any kind of meaningful change people point to either our current DPS or TBN as a blasted excuse for why the job is fine when everybody here knows it is not.

Where is the objective proof that this is the case, that TBN is somehow stymieing all potential meaningful change for DRK?
I have only ever seen such sentiment from suppositional quips and arguments by players, much like the the one that you are making, and then people repeating such over and over until they believe it to be true.

Look at any thread where people state DRK feels bad to play or is a bad tank, almost all of them will point to TBN as to the reason why it's fine. Even the devs seem to think DRK is fine just because of TBN, else they'd have given us better mitigation than just Oblation.