Starter healer... WHM?

[Roeshel]

snip

A diurnal ast who is using only ogcds can't heal significantly more than you if you are using lilies which you need to use for movement before and after mechanics anyway. In three minutes time they can end up healing less if you utilize your tools.

You can use benison each time you reapply dia if you want so much to get that whopping 4500 shield potency. However, it will not change the fact that it is excessive and not needed outside tankbusters. Things that are not needed have no value. As you've stated yourself, strong gcd healing, the one thing whm excels at, has no value in savage because it is not needed.

Misaligning dia with assize is not that big of a deal, just improvise. Actually, there is no way you won't misalign dia with assize from the very beginning if you are resetting your dot at the last tick which occurs at the last 2 seconds.

Succor's shield is weak. 205 prevented damage is not huge. For me huge is something like 70-90% mitigation. Idk, we are thinking on different wavelengths.

The healer class with the strongest rDPS on e9s is whm. So it is possible to deal more damage than AST and SCH. Even if they are better equipped for the encounter.

A single good kill on whatever savage boss I hopped into means that I am good enough to be able to make a single good kill with good dps and an adequate amount of healing when I don't get murdered. Yes, it doesn't make me an expert and I never said it did, it was in your head.
Also, there is something I don't understand. How is seeing all mechanics of a boss a good thing? All of the bosses enrage after the last one. A good party will not get to that point. A bad party will.

[Imora]

Or they spam Physick because it has the higher burst healing than Adlo although Adlo is far stronger in pulls where the tank gets thrashed.

I'm guilty of this because I've tried adlo spam and it doesn't help when the tanks getting trucked. I just can't keep up. Lustrate seems to hit like a wet noodle too.

Need to make up my damn mind.

But thanks for the tips. I usually saved WD for aoe damage ><

[Roeshel]

You countered your own point. WHM's situational 10 seconds of Temp/Plenary/Cure III glory is worthless if nothing in the game...

My point was that whm is straightforward and a healing powerhouse. Theoretically speaking you can't heal more than them if gcds are used for healing spells and not for dps. So how did I counter that point?
Yes, I did say that the game doesn't require such massive heals on gcds so why do we have them? Whm has the strongest healing potential which is just not required in any part of the game. This doesn't mean that they are not straightforward and a healing powerhouse.
Consistent low or no cost ogcd are more valuable even in savage because the healing required is very low. This is why a video like this one exists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDxjXMMWgU
Savage is content that can be cleared with only one healer and still they will still spend most of their time dpsing. The low healing requirement in savage which is designed to be covered by ogcds only is an actual problem.
I remember my first savage clear, I thought that savage is going to have challenging healing requirements, I thought I had to keep everyone topped off, the boss is going to be dealing massive damage constantly & randomly and ppl are going to be dying if they are not on full hp. Nope, I was just overhealing like crazy.

Also, AST is the worst healing class imo for levelling dungeons. There is just no point comparing WHM to AST at level 50. Holy is the strongest AoE spell because of its stun. Stunned mobs deal no damage, so you don't need ED to keep your tank alive. Mana management for WHM is nonexistent unless they have 0 extra piety which can't happen if you are buying tomestone gear. So the fact that ast has cheaper heals and mobility in levelling dungeons is completely inconsequential.

[Semirhage]

Also, AST is the worst healing class imo for levelling dungeons...So the fact that ast has cheaper heals and mobility in levelling dungeons is completely inconsequential.

Is it? AST doesn't need to stun mobs with Holy. It has a gazillion brokenly overpowered oGCD heals that have hilariously short cooldowns. They're available every single pull, even if you somehow need to dip into using all of them. And it has infinite free single-weaving space even on Gravity, so its damage doesn't get slowed down at all. Holy is the best damage reduction cooldown to be sure, but once its diminishing returns wear off you need to keep an eye on the tank and either clip the hell out of your damage to keep them up with your few oGCDs, or halt your GCD damage entirely to heal. AST is, just like in Stormblood, just a superior WHM in all but a few niche scenarios.

[Roeshel]

Is it? AST doesn't need to stun mobs with Holy. It has a gazillion brokenly overpowered oGCD heals that have hilariously short cooldowns. They're available every single pull, even if you somehow need to dip into using all of them. And it has infinite free single-weaving space even on Gravity, so its damage doesn't get slowed down at all. Holy is the best damage reduction cooldown to be sure, but once its diminishing returns wear off you need to keep an eye on the tank and either clip the hell out of your damage to keep them up with your few oGCDs, or halt your GCD damage entirely to heal. AST is, just like in Stormblood, just a superior WHM in all but a few niche scenarios.

Putting regen and asylum is all you need for your tank to be sustained in a big pull. Even if the mobs are not dead by the time asylum and regen runs out you just reapply regen, use tetra and benison and continue with the spam, only 140 potency lost. You have 400 bonus dmg potency from assize so you still win against ast. WHM has stronger damage output than ast at the current level 80 dungeon content. And I just checked for ala mhigo from stromblood. White mages just deal more damage because they have good sustain.

[Semirhage]

Putting regen and asylum is all you need for your tank to be sustained in a big pull. Even if the mobs are not dead by the time asylum and regen runs out you just reapply regen, use tetra and benison and continue with the spam, only 140 potency lost. You have 400 bonus dmg potency from assize so you still win against ast. WHM has stronger damage output than ast at the current level 80 dungeon content. And I just checked for ala mhigo from stromblood. White mages just deal more damage because they have good sustain.

Does that make AST particularly bad at dungeons? They lose -zero- damage potency from their healing. I don't think that makes WHM so much better or more fluid than AST. At that point they're just approaching healing in different ways. Doesn't change the fact that AST isn't anywhere in the same galaxy as clunktastic as the immobile damage-lossy WHM gets when a tougher fight is going south.

Misaligning dia with assize is not that big of a deal, just improvise.

By improvise, do you mean clip? There isn't a way to do this without losing damage. AST doesn't have this problem at all. Because AST is designed in a way that gels with this game's combat system, and WHM isn't. Being incredibly mobile, never clipping anything, and never needing to slow your damage down to heal is a really unbeatable set of advantages in almost all situations.

Man, WHM has a bunch of really craptastic design facets when you actually try to optimize it. Being immobile is a huge disadvantage in a game that forces you to deal with nearly all mechanics by moving. Having so little damage-neutral weaving space forces you to clip your GCD, in a game where most of your output comes from maintaining your casts. It has zero party damage increases in a game that makes percentage buffs more and more effective as time goes on in an expansion. AST doesn't have any of these problems. It excels in not just one or two, but ALL of these areas, and all it pays for all of these quality of life advantages with slightly lower base potency on its damage spells.

To answer the original question instead of just sparring over whether AST or WHM is better, WHM has basically no nuance to it as long as you plan on just running expert roulette and you don't care about eking out every drop of efficiency out of your job. AST is harder to wrap your head around at first, but if you run both through expert you'll eventually someday find yourself wondering "Why the hell does this ridiculous AST job have a six-HUNDRED potency off-GCD heal on a THIRTY second cooldown, and why do I never have to stop blasting to use it? Why do I have to hard clip Holy to use Assize unless I want to dot one of the things in this group or blow a lily on the tank that's barely taking damage? Who designed this stupid WHM job and why does its kit feel like it wasn't created by someone who knows how this game's combat system flows?"

[Roeshel]

Does that make AST particularly bad at dungeons? They lose -zero- damage potency from their healing. I don't think that makes WHM so much better or more fluid than AST. At that point they're just approaching healing in different ways. Doesn't change the fact that AST isn't anywhere in the same galaxy as clunktastic as the immobile damage-lossy WHM gets when a tougher fight is going south.

By improvise, do you mean clip? There isn't a way to do this without losing damage. AST doesn't have this problem at all. Because AST is designed in a way that gels with this game's combat system, and WHM isn't. Being incredibly mobile, never clipping anything, and never needing to slow your damage down to heal is a really unbeatable set of advantages in almost all situations.

Man, WHM has a bunch of really craptastic design facets when you actually try to optimize it. Being immobile is a huge disadvantage in a game that forces you to deal with nearly all mechanics by moving. Having so little damage-neutral weaving space forces you to clip your GCD, in a game where most of your output comes from maintaining your casts. It has zero party damage increases in a game that makes percentage buffs more and more effective as time goes on in an expansion. AST doesn't have any of these problems. It excels in not just one or two, but ALL of these areas, and all it pays for all of these quality of life advantages with slightly lower base potency on its damage spells.

I know that ast is a better healer generally speaking. I just don't think that whm is the absolute garbage people make it out to be.

[Roeshel]

Does that make AST particularly bad at dungeons? They lose -zero- damage potency from their healing. I don't think that makes WHM so much better or more fluid than AST. At that point they're just approaching healing in different ways. Doesn't change the fact that AST isn't anywhere in the same galaxy as clunktastic as the immobile damage-lossy WHM gets when a tougher fight is going south.

I went through the patch notes from Shb because I saw that whm's percentile in top 50 was a lot higher in the first shb raid tier. Ast actually used to be clunky when it spammed its AoE in dungeons. It had a longer cast time so using cards or ogcd while AoE was not an option unless you want to be whm 2.0. Healing while dealing damage on mob packs was possible only if they used lightspeed. There weren't always as fluid as there are now.

I have a question btw. If whm is the worst designed healer why is it currently the healer with the highest percentile for the top 50 ultimate clears for the epic of Alexandar? Isn't ultimate supposed to be the hardest of the hardest content to clear?

[Liam_Harper]

Also, there is something I don't understand. How is seeing all mechanics of a boss a good thing? All of the bosses enrage after the last one. A good party will not get to that point. A bad party will.

Basically skipping high movement/heal mechanics like Pitch Bog II and having a well coordinated group that makes no mistakes and lines up mitigation well is going to result in far better dps. Obviously, getting orange still means you're decent but if you're claiming Dia misalignment is fine (it's rough) and Benison doesn't matter there's more to learn. If WHM had infinite weave we'd use Benison on cd, it's free and may save other resources. But we don't so we dump it on the AST who can CI and ED constantly and use it only whenever a window opens that needs nothing else. Which is why AST is so valuable.

The top e9s rdps kill for WHM has high crit Assize/Misery padding on adds.

Succor in itself is bad, but a 205 shield is good when you pair it with other heals. In the same way 300 potency for a Rapture is "weak", but paired with mitigation and your co-heals oGCD's, it equals enough healing to avoid GCD hardcasts being necessary. It adds up. In a group that doesn't bother with all those 10%'s, you start to notice your resources being stretched or your normal heal plan didn't cut it and you're unsure why.

Curious on your source for a Diurnal AST with all oGCD's healing less than a WHM using all their lilies. Most top kills have AST significantly ahead.

WHM has stronger damage output than ast at the current level 80 dungeon content.

Definitely, WHM's are damage machines in lv80 dungeons, no doubt. But dungeons are so ridiculously easy having that as a strength doesn't really mean much.

The issue isn't that WHM isn't good enough for any of the content in the game. It's "fine". It's just that none of it's strengths, like dungeons or overheal Cure III combos matter. Everything that does matter other healers can do better except WHM comes with multiple weaknesses the other healers don't have.

Would a Di ast not be more viable now even in old exes like arr ones than whm?

Definitely. Diurnal AST is miles easier on mana at lv50, having the 8% mp from cards and similar but cheaper GCD heals, while WHM doesn't get Solace or Thin Air until later. ED is generally more useful than Bene too, due to a shorter cooldown meaning you have it on demand more often. It's also far more mobile, WHM doesn't even have lilies to move while AST has full access to Lightspeed and 1.5 sec Malefic.

[Roeshel]

Curious on your source for a Diurnal AST with all oGCD's healing less than a WHM using all their lilies. Most top kills have AST significantly ahead.

Theoretically speaking, every three minutes whm gains 6 lilies = 1800 aoe heal. You have plenary on 1 min cd, so what you can do is use two lilies each time you use plenary so that's extra 400 per minute, 1200 for 3 mins. You can cast assize 4 times in 3 mins so that's 1600 aoe heal and you get to use Asylum twice, it has 900 base potency but I guess the hp recovery buff also applies to it as well. In any case, 1800 from asylum. In three minutes, whm's cure potential is 6400 without any medicas and hp recovery buffs.

Diurnal ast has 700 from CO, 500 from CU, 720 from star and 200 from Horoscope. That's 2120 every minute. 6360 in three minutes. The difference is that they can heal that amount for free. WHM loses on potency every time they use a lily. So most whms just opt out to heal significantly less in order to avoid losing dps.