Splitting SMN in Two

[Seraphor]

Yeah, you don't need to make a new DOT class. Just prune some of SMNs DOTs and replace them with summon or summon related skills.

[dezzmont]

Yeah, you don't need to make a new DOT class. Just prune some of SMNs DOTs and replace them with summon or summon related skills.

Don't even need to do that really. SMN just badly needs a 'visual overhaul.' The Egi is a pretty big part of your DPS and has high potency, its just that visuals matter way more than actual potency for job feel (Which can be quite useful: barrage is a big DPS boost for bard but isn't an important part of its identity or optimization compared to using its songs correctly, so despite barrage granting you an extra 230 potency over a fully charged pitched perfect, pitch perfect is visually way more impressive in order to make it clear that is what bard is 'about') and most of the egi's animations are very low key 'basic attacks' that are almost invisible in a fight.

Egi assault just needs to turn your egi into a demi to shoot an ability out for ya (with no change in functionality otherwise, besides being made more responsive obviously) to 'fix summoner.' The problems with SMN that make it a 'pain point' job are ones of job fantasy failing to be delivered, not through mechanics. In fact, I would say mechanically the cycle of building up trances to get 'super spells' is probably the best way to implement a FF style summoner in an MMO because summons are often actually just fancy limit breaks, so the job having a 'private LB gauge' it is fighting to fill while its doing a lot of its DPS via dots fits quite well. Its just that SMN as a job visually undersells the SMN aspects so hard that is a problem.

[Seraphor]

Don't even need to do that really. SMN just badly needs a 'visual overhaul.' The Egi is a pretty big part of your DPS and has high potency, its just that visuals matter way more than actual potency for job feel (Which can be quite useful: barrage is a big DPS boost for bard but isn't an important part of its identity or optimization compared to using its songs correctly, so despite barrage granting you an extra 230 potency over a fully charged pitched perfect, pitch perfect is visually way more impressive in order to make it clear that is what bard is 'about') and most of the egi's animations are very low key 'basic attacks' that are almost invisible in a fight.

Egi assault just needs to turn your egi into a demi to shoot an ability out for ya (with no change in functionality otherwise, besides being made more responsive obviously) to 'fix summoner.' The problems with SMN that make it a 'pain point' job are ones of job fantasy failing to be delivered, not through mechanics. In fact, I would say mechanically the cycle of building up trances to get 'super spells' is probably the best way to implement a FF style summoner in an MMO because summons are often actually just fancy limit breaks, so the job having a 'private LB gauge' it is fighting to fill while its doing a lot of its DPS via dots fits quite well. Its just that SMN as a job visually undersells the SMN aspects so hard that is a problem.

SMN has always had an identity problem with DOTs.
The problem with having so many DOTs as your main form of damage is that they all have to be ridiculously weak individually so you're not completely OP.
SMN has TWO DOTs, plus Egis, which are another more elaborate DOT.
Just axe one of the regular DOT spells already so that summons can actually be somewhat impactful.

[Dyvid]

Summoner doesn't have an "identity crisis"; a few people just don't like the identity.

All damage is "Damage over time" it just depends on how it is used. BLM has massive Burst damage while Summoner has death by 1000 cuts and Red Mage lives somewhere in between. Remove all the visuals of a job and you'll notice that the dummy is taking slow big hits from one, faster milder hits from another, and a steady stream of hits from the other.

[dezzmont]

Summoner doesn't have an "identity crisis"; a few people just don't like the identity.

Its mechanical identity is sublime. Its thematic identity is... baaaaaad.

Its bad. Lets not mince words. SMN's visuals and ties to its fantasy (both in the greater Final Fantasy series, and in universe where pretty much every Egi we encounter is way cooler than ours despite Egis being 'the point') is really bad. I suspect almost all of the complaints about SMN would vanish overnight if it solved the '2.0 visuals' problem. Its sorta up there with Monk in how bad the visuals and impact of their abilities hold back the job.

All damage is "Damage over time" it just depends on how it is used. BLM has massive Burst damage while Summoner has death by 1000 cuts and Red Mage lives somewhere in between. Remove all the visuals of a job and you'll notice that the dummy is taking slow big hits from one, faster milder hits from another, and a steady stream of hits from the other.

This is an interesting thought experiment because, yeah, if you removed all visuals a lot of jobs people really like might do a lot worse, and vice versa. Like BLM is probably safe despite Fire IV being one of the most satisfying spells in terms of 'impact' in the game, but BRD comes to mind as a job that does a lot of 'heavy lifting' with visual flair. And heck, people might actually like MNK a lot more once its not dragged into the dirt by how not visually rewarding its main mechanics are.

And that isn't a trivial or petty complaint. Visual design is a key element of game design, and its a huge part of the FF series overall. And summoner is a super iconic job. Summoner. Not SMN. I think Summoner could exist in SMN, but right now it doesn't, and a lot of discussions by SMN mains seem to admit this as if it isn't a big problem that puts the entire mechanical identity of SMN at risk, because I don't believe the devs would preserve SMN, the job from one game, over Summoner, the iconic FF job that utilizes some of the most iconic abilities in the series.

Again, I think most of the 'SMN is actually not really a Summoner at all" complaints come from how bad the job is at conveying what is actually happening with your egi and egi assaults and how clunky those feel. I am hoping the overhaul is just that, but considering the Egi mechanically doesn't exist for most purposes besides weird cast delays and pre-setting the AoE for Devotion I suspect it will be more substantial.

[Tulzscha]

Summoner doesn't have an "identity crisis"; a few people just don't like the identity.

All damage is "Damage over time" it just depends on how it is used. BLM has massive Burst damage while Summoner has death by 1000 cuts and Red Mage lives somewhere in between. Remove all the visuals of a job and you'll notice that the dummy is taking slow big hits from one, faster milder hits from another, and a steady stream of hits from the other.

The point is that SMN has two different ideas going on at the same time: summons and the Miasma/Bio/Fester/etc. package. And while yes spamming Ruin deals damage over time Ruin is not a damage over time spell, those are specifically spells like Bio that put a debuff on an enemy and deal damage... over time, without any additional input from the caster.

Its mechanical identity is sublime. Its thematic identity is... baaaaaad.

I think most of the 'SMN is actually not really a Summoner at all" complaints come from how bad the job is at conveying what is actually happening with your egi and egi assaults and how clunky those feel. I am hoping the overhaul is just that, but considering the Egi mechanically doesn't exist for most purposes besides weird cast delays and pre-setting the AoE for Devotion I suspect it will be more substantial.

Yes SMN is very fun to play (imo) which is the most important thing. Thematically the dots have nothing to do with the summons and egis look, feel, and are weak. When you think "Summoner" you think someone who summons things to deal with enemies for them and we don't really do that. The vast majority of our damage comes from Ruin, dots, and Fester. Egis exist more to enable Ruin IV than anything.

Before demi summons came along we were essentially Warlocks with a different name. And I'm cool with that, I like Warlocks, but they're not Summoners. Now that we have Bahamut and Phoenix we're starting to feel more like actual Summoners but much of our kit is cut off from them both mechanically and thematically.

[dezzmont]

Yes SMN is very fun to play (imo) which is the most important thing. Thematically the dots have nothing to do with the summons and egis look, feel, and are weak. When you think "Summoner" you think someone who summons things to deal with enemies for them and we don't really do that. The vast majority of our damage comes from Ruin, dots, and Fester. Egis exist more to enable Ruin IV than anything.

Before demi summons came along we were essentially Warlocks with a different name. And I'm cool with that, I like Warlocks, but they're not Summoners. Now that we have Bahamut and Phoenix we're starting to feel more like actual Summoners but much of our kit is cut off from them both mechanically and thematically.

its interesting for you to say that Egis are weak but Demis are strong when Egis are more damage output than either Demi (though, admittedly not both). For perspective, apparently the output of the egi is on par with the output of Bard's song mechanics of Bloodletter and Pitch Perfect, and this is ignoring Ruin IV entirely.

They aren't weak at all, they are as strong as many job's 'main' mechanics, its just that they are visually so terribly designed most people wouldn't ever notice because you get so little visual impact from hitting an egi assault button it feels like nothing, despite it actually being a weavable 250 potency (ok, pet scaling being what it is, probably 200) attack, which is extremely strong for a weave and you having the ability to hit that weave every 15 seconds.

Dots make sense for summoner in a few ways thematically (For example, carbuncle in FF is historically a DOT summon, so them being our first """"Summon"""" despite lorewise not being a summon makes it work a bit better), and they aren't actually detracting that much from the Egi. Its just that the Egi, again, looks so freakin baaaaaaad. Its on par with Bootshine in terms of hiding how much its actually doing for you and creating a very lackluster feel to them.

I personally think the fact we DON'T have Demis up all the time is important to the mechanical feel of SMN AND making it feel like a summoner. Summoners in FF overall don't just 'have' their summons, they are in the games generally either that game's limit-break system and are character specific (ex: Snow in FF13 summons Shiva), are super spells that have huge charge times or mana costs (Ex: 6 and 7), or are a character's 'ultimate ability' that override's the party and is not meant to be generally used because it has serious weaknesses (ex: FFX). The concept of 'charging up' the demi via trances and mostly fighting personally is actually EXTREMELY FF summoner, and while its kinda bad there isn't a good thematic link between dreadwyrm trance into summoning Bahumat (and maybe holding dreadwyrm aether should give you a little glow to make it more clear you 'charged up' the summon), it actually makes a lot of sense thematically and mechanically the summoner has to 'earn' Bahumat and Phoenix (and, if we ever get egi-glams, maybe other glammed demis as well, so its more clear a demi is just a 'powered up' egi).

This is why I am not a fan of proposed SMN reworks despite generally sitting in the 'Actually no SMN is in a really bad spot right now.' It MECHANICALLY feels a LOT like a summoner! Its just that what the visuals prioritize and creates in game doesn't at all.

Its just that nuance is hard and language is imprecise and 'The character animations undersell what is happening too much' is a really fiddly opinion that no one is going to naturally reach unless they just happen to look and go 'hey wait Flaming Crush and Crimson Cyclone are actually a LOT of potency that come off cooldown VERY fast, despite the animations being so downplayed I can't even see them while looking for them and it feeling like nothing happens besides me getting Ruin IV when I hit this button."

[Tulzscha]

its interesting for you to say that Egis are weak but Demis are strong when Egis are more damage output than either Demi (though, admittedly not both). For perspective, apparently the output of the egi is on par with the output of Bard's song mechanics of Bloodletter and Pitch Perfect, and this is ignoring Ruin IV entirely.

They aren't weak at all, they are as strong as many job's 'main' mechanics, its just that they are visually so terribly designed most people wouldn't ever notice because you get so little visual impact from hitting an egi assault button it feels like nothing, despite it actually being a weavable 250 potency (ok, pet scaling being what it is, probably 200) attack, which is extremely strong for a weave and you having the ability to hit that weave every 15 seconds.

Dots make sense for summoner in a few ways thematically (For example, carbuncle in FF is historically a DOT summon, so them being our first """"Summon"""" despite lorewise not being a summon makes it work a bit better), and they aren't actually detracting that much from the Egi. Its just that the Egi, again, looks so freakin baaaaaaad. Its on par with Bootshine in terms of hiding how much its actually doing for you and creating a very lackluster feel to them.

I personally think the fact we DON'T have Demis up all the time is important to the mechanical feel of SMN AND making it feel like a summoner. Summoners in FF overall don't just 'have' their summons, they are in the games generally either that game's limit-break system and are character specific (ex: Snow in FF13 summons Shiva), are super spells that have huge charge times or mana costs (Ex: 6 and 7), or are a character's 'ultimate ability' that override's the party and is not meant to be generally used because it has serious weaknesses (ex: FFX). The concept of 'charging up' the demi via trances and mostly fighting personally is actually EXTREMELY FF summoner, and while its kinda bad there isn't a good thematic link between dreadwyrm trance into summoning Bahumat (and maybe holding dreadwyrm aether should give you a little glow to make it more clear you 'charged up' the summon), it actually makes a lot of sense thematically and mechanically the summoner has to 'earn' Bahumat and Phoenix (and, if we ever get egi-glams, maybe other glammed demis as well, so its more clear a demi is just a 'powered up' egi).

This is why I am not a fan of proposed SMN reworks despite generally sitting in the 'Actually no SMN is in a really bad spot right now.' It MECHANICALLY feels a LOT like a summoner! Its just that what the visuals prioritize and creates in game doesn't at all.

Its just that nuance is hard and language is imprecise and 'The character animations undersell what is happening too much' is a really fiddly opinion that no one is going to naturally reach unless they just happen to look and go 'hey wait Flaming Crush and Crimson Cyclone are actually a LOT of potency that come off cooldown VERY fast, despite the animations being so downplayed I can't even see them while looking for them and it feeling like nothing happens besides me getting Ruin IV when I hit this button."

When you completely ignore uptime sure Egis deal more damage than Demis. They're still weaker. It's not all about visuals, the fact that they're out all the time makes them less meaningful and the fact that their abilities are ogcd makes them feel unimpactful. Like you said with Demis, it's important that they're not out all the time and I don't think we should always have a Demi out because those are special moments, but we could bring up the Egis a bit and make them more special.

The main reasons I like the idea of a rotating Egi system are to add more variety, utility, and interactions with summons to the job. We would still always have an Egi out but they could at least do something cool upon summon so they're less of an afterthought, only to be utilized in between the "important" spells (as spells on the gcd have more weight to them).

I do really like the idea of putting more emphasis on Trance again to make summons feel more impactful as stated in my first post here, and if our lesser summons could be involved in the process rather than temporarily discarded in favor of something stronger, all the better.

Also I've always known Carbuncle to cast Reflect on the party, not sure where it being a dot summon comes from. (FFXI maybe? Haven't played that one.)

[Anhra]

I like the Idea posted by the OP.

Some of the Skills which SMN loses, such as the DoT skills, fester, bane as well as the Ruin Spells should be given to SCH, maybe not with the same potencies, but it would clearly make the job more interesting, as it is now.

As for Egis, i think a good way to design them would be to give them a "enrage bar" that fills up during combat, as long as the egi is out, once it "enrages", it can take its demi-form for a limited time and gets a new set of skills. In order to properly balance this, it would require Egis to be killable again (as well as updating the way they are controlled). The Demi Summon also gets additional stats such as increased HP and stats befitting its Role.

[Flana]

As for Egis, i think a good way to design them would be to give them a "enrage bar" that fills up during combat, as long as the egi is out, once it "enrages", it can take its demi-form for a limited time and gets a new set of skills. In order to properly balance this, it would require Egis to be killable again (as well as updating the way they are controlled).

This only introduces even more ghosting points because now the kit has dramatically increased the amount of forced pet swaps instead of just every ~60 and ~80 seconds. You can lose abilities going into the phase and you can lose abilities going out of the phase. Also pets taking damage has never been an engaging mechanic because its either useless chip damage or the pet gets one shot, and in the latter case that could cause even more resetting problems in the job if the bar dies when the pet does, which is how similar mechanics already work for them (such as Garuda and Titan AoEs).