Apartments need Rent

[Keramory]

I'm confused on why there's an argument about gil sinks to begin with.

The topic was how to make apartments more appealing to players. Telling them the appeal is, "Because you gotta lose gil somehow" probably wont register well with most people.

[MilkieTea]

I'm confused on why there's an argument about gil sinks to begin with.

The topic was how to make apartments more appealing to players. Telling them the appeal is, "Because you gotta lose gil somehow" probably wont register well with most people.

I only piped in because somewhere along the line, Almagnus started talking about gil sinks. Either way, this is unappealing and lacks finesse.

[Almagnus1]

I only piped in because somewhere along the line, Almagnus started talking about gil sinks. Either way, this is unappealing and lacks finesse.

And if all the houses (and apartments) had rent on them... it would make it significantly more difficult for someone to hoard houses and making it difficult for people in addition to bleeding some gil from the economy. The goal here isn't to drain Lake Powell by blowing up the dam... but to provide another way to redirect some water from the Colorado so that Lake Powell doesn't over flow... akin to having a series of luxury hotels in the area that are consuming the water from the lake and pumping the water out to a nearby city. The problem with MMO economies, however, is that they do not work like the real world one because they are all about currency creation and destruction, with the economy retaining some of the currency and that cycling amongst the playerbase.

But back to rent, several other MMOs do this, and going by IRL, while you don't have rent on most houses (ignoring the housing payment until the load is paid off) you do have maintenance costs... especially when your AC decides to commit sudoku in the middle of a heat wave! =D **cries in sweat**

[MilkieTea]

And if all the houses (and apartments) had rent on them... it would make it significantly more difficult for someone to hoard houses and making it difficult for people in addition to bleeding some gil from the economy. The goal here isn't to drain Lake Powell by blowing up the dam... but to provide another way to redirect some water from the Colorado so that Lake Powell doesn't over flow... akin to having a series of luxury hotels in the area that are consuming the water from the lake and pumping the water out to a nearby city. The problem with MMO economies, however, is that they do not work like the real world one because they are all about currency creation and destruction, with the economy retaining some of the currency and that cycling amongst the playerbase.

But back to rent, several other MMOs do this, and going by IRL, while you don't have rent on most houses (ignoring the housing payment until the load is paid off) you do have maintenance costs... especially when your AC decides to commit sudoku in the middle of a heat wave! =D **cries in sweat**

Using your analogy - this idea would be akin to diverting nothing but a tiny, tiny, tiny creek (like the kinds you step over with half a step). It's not nearly enough because precipitation would just add that back in anyways. Will lake powell overflow? With the tiny amount being diverted, any big rain shower would send it overflowing.

If you want a weekly gil sink - MAKE luxury hotel. Apartments are not luxury hotels. Make something that COUNTS - because 10k a week, 20k, 30k, 100k, won't do anything. And once you start getting into the prices that WOULD make even a small amount of difference, you'd have to justify it - and apartments don't justify that cost.

[Almagnus1]

Using your analogy - this idea would be akin to diverting nothing but a tiny, tiny, tiny creek (like the kinds you step over with half a step). It's not nearly enough because precipitation would just add that back in anyways. Will lake powell overflow? With the tiny amount being diverted, any big rain shower would send it overflowing.

I think it'd do more than you think it would. If you take a set of 90 apartments, that's going to pump out 900k gil/week per ward. With 24 wards across four housing areas (and each ward having two complexes), we're looking at 172,800,000 gil leaving the economy PER WEEK (assuming full apartment occupancy). Yes, the 10k gil/week per player is completely trivial, but when you start looking at the total economic impact, it's actually a lot more than you think it is.

Now if we do the same for houses, and go with X k upkeep per house (and arguably there should be a multiplier for the FC houses) then we are looking at least 5,760 * x gil per week leaving the economy. Or to put it this way, if the housing rent was between 10k to 100k , that would result between 57,600,000 gil/week and 576,000,000 gil/week leaving economy. All you'd need to do to cross the billion gil per week deleted is charge 173,612 gil/week rent on the houses.

I totally get that on a per person level the number is completely trivial, but that's the point of a good gil sink - it's something the average player wouldn't think twice about paying but when it's scaled up across everyone in a system, it actually deletes out quite a bit of gil. In other words, this is how Patreon can make an artist a millionaire in a month.

[MilkieTea]

I think it'd do more than you think it would. If you take a set of 90 apartments, that's going to pump out 900k gil/week per ward. With 24 wards across four housing areas (and each ward having two complexes), we're looking at 172,800,000 gil leaving the economy PER WEEK (assuming full apartment occupancy). Yes, the 10k gil/week per player is completely trivial, but when you start looking at the total economic impact, it's actually a lot more than you think it is.

Now if we do the same for houses, and go with X k upkeep per house (and arguably there should be a multiplier for the FC houses) then we are looking at least 5,760 * x gil per week leaving the economy. Or to put it this way, if the housing rent was between 10k to 100k , that would result between 57,600,000 gil/week and 576,000,000 gil/week leaving economy. All you'd need to do to cross the billion gil per week deleted is charge 173,612 gil/week rent on the houses.

I totally get that on a per person level the number is completely trivial, but that's the point of a good gil sink - it's something the average player wouldn't think twice about paying but when it's scaled up across everyone in a system, it actually deletes out quite a bit of gil. In other words, this is how Patreon can make an artist a millionaire in a month.

Using this math - since you've acknowledged that endgame players doing just a tiny bit of work can make 10k/week. Let's say EVERYONE in the wards that are, for some reason, all full (maybe everyone wants an apartment on faerie for some reason), only make 10k a week for the apartment. They don't do anything else - no selling, no buying, only doing like 1 thing per week to make that 10k - 172,800,000 is not leaving the economy at all. The economy remains the same.

Now, knowing that at endgame players are doing more than 1 tiny thing per week, let's say they're just doing their roulettes. That's 100k a DAY. Alright, let's say they only do their roulettes per week, and not per day. that's 9000000/ward. across 24 wards that's 216000000 gil. across 4 housing areas: 864000000. multiplied by 2 (2 apartments per ward) that's close to TWO BILLION entering the economy every week. 1,728,000,000 in fact (tack on a zero to your million.) This means that you're combating 1.728 billion with 1.728 million. That's 10%. And bear in mind this is FRESH money - which means nothing's lost in the gil bucket, only added to.

Players faced will a weekly gil "sink" of 10k would just hop on to their duty roulette and do a single levelling roulette.

Precipitation is just adding more water to the river than is being diverted by the tiny inch-wide creek.

[Almagnus1]

Using this math - since you've acknowledged that endgame players doing just a tiny bit of work can make 10k/week. Let's say EVERYONE in the wards that are, for some reason, all full (maybe everyone wants an apartment on faerie for some reason), only make 10k a week for the apartment. They don't do anything else - no selling, no buying, only doing like 1 thing per week to make that 10k - 172,800,000 is not leaving the economy at all. The economy remains the same.

That's also why I'm lowballing it... You have apartments aimed at newer players (which don't have access to the endgame rous) and then put a more expensive rent on personal and FC houses (but not FC rooms). Apartment's role in housing should be the way into it so people can get used to the system and also provide a discount on a house purchase (in addition to forwarding banked rent onto the house) so players are enticed to upgrade. That's also why the OP suggests a 80% buy in price reduction and a lower GC rank requirement to get an apartment so that more of the player base has access to them.

Now, knowing that at endgame players are doing more than 1 tiny thing per week, let's say they're just doing their roulettes. That's 100k a DAY. Alright, let's say they only do their roulettes per week, and not per day. that's 9000000/ward. across 24 wards that's 216000000 gil. across 4 housing areas: 864000000. multiplied by 2 (2 apartments per ward) that's close to TWO BILLION entering the economy every week. 1,728,000,000 in fact (tack on a zero to your million.) This means that you're combating 1.728 billion with 1.728 million. That's 10%. And bear in mind this is FRESH money - which means nothing's lost in the gil bucket, only added to.

That's also why I have been suggesting a house upkeep cost (which is basically rent), and tbh while I could pick a number out of the air (like 50k gil/week), that would best be set off of the SE data for the amount of gil the active average player with at least one level 80 job is creating per week. IMO the rent for a house should be half of that number so a player doesn't become house poor. FC rent should be at least four times whatever that number is, and that number should also increase based on house size (the bigger the house, the more there is to maintain). On the upside, attaching a maintenance cost to houses also makes it harder for players to hold onto additional houses beyond the first.

[Keramory]

I think it'd do more than you think it would. If you take a set of 90 apartments, that's going to pump out 900k gil/week per ward. With 24 wards across four housing areas (and each ward having two complexes), we're looking at 172,800,000 gil leaving the economy PER WEEK (assuming full apartment occupancy). Yes, the 10k gil/week per player is completely trivial, but when you start looking at the total economic impact, it's actually a lot more than you think it is.

But why though? Why do we need this gil sink in particular? It's insignificant to the players that have been playing a while and an annoyance to newer ones. What about apartments or housing in general warrants this supposedly needed gil sink?

[Vahlnir]

But why though? Why do we need this gil sink in particular?

Short answer: We don't need it.

Long answer: We don't need it but the OP is pushing for it anyway, even though it's a bad idea. Gotta admire their tenacity I guess.

[NanaWiloh]

I think it'd do more than you think it would. If you take a set of 90 apartments, that's going to pump out 900k gil/week per ward. With 24 wards across four housing areas (and each ward having two complexes), we're looking at 172,800,000 gil leaving the economy PER WEEK (assuming full apartment occupancy). Yes, the 10k gil/week per player is completely trivial, but when you start looking at the total economic impact, it's actually a lot more than you think it is.

Now if we do the same for houses, and go with X k upkeep per house (and arguably there should be a multiplier for the FC houses) then we are looking at least 5,760 * x gil per week leaving the economy. Or to put it this way, if the housing rent was between 10k to 100k , that would result between 57,600,000 gil/week and 576,000,000 gil/week leaving economy. All you'd need to do to cross the billion gil per week deleted is charge 173,612 gil/week rent on the houses.

I totally get that on a per person level the number is completely trivial, but that's the point of a good gil sink - it's something the average player wouldn't think twice about paying but when it's scaled up across everyone in a system, it actually deletes out quite a bit of gil. In other words, this is how Patreon can make an artist a millionaire in a month.

You have proven hands down you have no clue how much gil a player can make in just a day alone.