Thread: Summoner 6.0 Rework (my reimagining)

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

SMN is far from perfect, but it certainly doesn't need to join BLU in being a gimmick that half pretends at being a job.

I didn't agree with turning SMN into a limited job (I'd rather it stayed as a regular one as well).
All I said was that the original poster's list would be more in line with that concept, considering how broken/imbalanced his suggestions were.

Originally Posted by Burningskull

What if they just copied BLM. Put cast times back on Summon spells. You summon the Primal, it does a big AoE attack, then disappears and goes on cool down forcing you to summon another Primal. You do this till you are out of mp which you then use ruin spells to regain mp. Or something.

Ultimately in most FF games summons aren't pets but are 'super spells.' They either show up for a set period to replace your team entirely, or are a one and done major effect for a ton of mana.

Part of the problem is egis don't capture the fantasy of a ff summoner super well, but the fantasy of a FF summoner is rough to put in an MMO because having a job specialize in summons would result in absurd downtime. Its why most (though not all) summoners are also some other job in FF games.

The trances and Demis seem like they capture it pretty well though: Your going through this build up as you get a progressively stronger representation of this giant primal until its there to fight for you for a moment. I would not be surprised if we moved from egis to most summoner aspects of the job becoming demi focused (while I think people love egis and they shouldn't go away, its funny how the job would probably feel MORE like a summoner if the egis were gone and just part of animations you used to cast the egi assault spells, appearing and vanishing for big attacks), but I doubt they would change it to the degree the OP is asking for.

Originally Posted by Dyvid

In the meantime, FFXIV Summoner is what it is and removing any major aspect of the job would be just a slap in the face to the people that still enjoy playing it. There are soon to be twelve DPS jobs in the game, find the one you enjoy and run with it.

Summoner doesn't need to be a limited job, it just sorta has two related but distinct problems: The mechanical fantasy and the thematic one.

A HUGE problem with summoner is that its a very iconic aspect of Final Fantasy, and while I respect the fact a lot of people like it as is, you need to understand that in kind summoner as it exists is... sorta a slap in the face to people who enjoy summoner in other FF games? So 'just pick a different job' doesn't really address the complaints here: they aren't that the job isn't fun to play, its that the job doesn't match what people who like summoner as a FF concept want summoner to be, and that is just as valid a complaint in my opinion.

FFXIV is, of course, its own game. And like I said its an mmo so directly porting it to XIV as a 'super-spell' or 'party replacer' wouldn't work anyway. But... it doesn't even evoke (heh) the concept of a summoner very well, compared to say... Red Mage which evokes Red Mages extremely well by even incorporating their melee identity and swiss army knife nature.

Ideally there is room for the people who like summoners mechanically as they are to be happy while still incorporating the 'feel' of summons to the job, but it sorta requires one to recognize Summoner is a huge 'theme fail.' Egis either need to be a bit more of a spectacle, or there should be more summon-esque stuff in the kit. And you don't even really need to change mechanics to make this happen, a lot of this comes down to how the abilities feel, their animations, how information is presented to the player, ect. It wouldn't be that hard to have, for example, egis work exactly the same but have egi assaults (and ESPECIALLY Enkindle) have the egi seemingly teleport to you for you to make it bigger or something and use the ability in a cool animation that makes it clear your pumping your egi up into a demi for a short moment. That alone would be a huge change that makes the job feel more like a summoner. Having Ifrit zoop to you (still where he actually is, just visually on your summoner) and become a demi/trance like effect that looks like the actual (yet still smaller, maybe a ghost about 1.5 times your size) primal casting Hellfire when you hit Enkindle would solve a LOT of the 'job feel' of Summoner without much mechanical overall.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To what end, though? As a DRG, does the playflow of summoning an eikon an having it battle for me remotely fit the appeal for which I would have likely chosen to become a DRG? And BLM? Bard?

If you want older-style iconic summons, then even a revamp of Limit Break to actually be interesting job-specialized mechanics would be a better fit than not only axing a mostly enjoyed job but also degrading the others' experience with shoe-horned extraneous vestiges of that job. Have SMN be the most versatile LB user of any job, able to enhance their current Egi/Summon into some grand and immediate effect. Voila.

Well, in relation to a brand new MMO it could some as simple as a timer to something as complex as a limit break. It wouldn't be a pet, but a spell because that is what most people envision when they think of summons. The summon fits the job; BRD could have Siren, BLM could be Diablos, WHM Seraph. The point is they problem with SMN regardless of which Final Fantasy MMO we talk about is that it never lined up with what people thought it should be, that will always be the case; yea some might not agree with something like Alexander being Paladins summon but they won't have an never-ending fight on what summon it was suppose to be. This is a good example of what I mean by action rather than pet, it comes out does it's special move then goes away. Again we are NOT talking about FFXIV in any way shape or form, just something for a future MMO to consider.

Originally Posted by Burningskull

What if they just copied BLM. Put cast times back on Summon spells. You summon the Primal, it does a big AoE attack, then disappears and goes on cool down forcing you to summon another Primal. You do this till you are out of mp which you then use ruin spells to regain mp. Or something.

Originally Posted by dezzmont

A HUGE problem with summoner is that its a very iconic aspect of Final Fantasy, and while I respect the fact a lot of people like it as is, you need to understand that in kind summoner as it exists is... sorta a slap in the face to people who enjoy summoner in other FF games? So 'just pick a different job' doesn't really address the complaints here: they aren't that the job isn't fun to play, its that the job doesn't match what people who like summoner as a FF concept want summoner to be, and that is just as valid a complaint in my opinion.

The concept behind job design to make each play differently, it would be rather boring to have SMN, RDM, BLM all play the same way. BLM is iconic but doesn't play like other FF games but that okay because at the end of the day it's fun. It's also a slap in the face to people who enjoy playing FFXIV Summoner to ask for a complete redesign because it doesn't play like what you want a FF Summoner to be.

Ah screw it. I've been on these boards for almost 8 years and no matter what, people just keep coming and keep asking for the job to be completely scrapped so they can get the Summoner they want; regardless if anyone is actually enjoying the job.