Black Mage does a FANTASTIC job of evoking the 'fantasy' of a FF black mage, which is destroying things. While in most FF games black mages also handle offensive buffs and use elemental weaknesses, that 1:1 port doesn't matter as much as capturing what it would feel like to be a Black Mage. It and Red Mage are IMO the top two classes in capturing this 'job fantasy' and I would say Summoner is pretty low on that list, which is why there is a lot of bellyaching.
Originally Posted by Dyvid
And existing Summoner is kinda a slap in the face to people who enjoy summons in FF games. Luckily, again, I think it is fairly easy to appease both camps, especially because mechanically SMN is quite well designed.
Summoner's main problem is that the visuals of the Job and the way abilities are 'sold' is, for lack of a better phrase, GOD AWFUL. An Egi's enkindle attack is less visually flashy than flipping SCHs Art of War, and when you activate it you don't really... do anything. Despite it being a nice OGCD and one of your capstones it just... kinda falls flat, and unlike some other capstones that are very 'potency based' they aren't doing anything so bonkers mechanically that carries the ability.
Mechanically I think SMN, again, secretly does a pretty good job of being a summoner despite the pet, mainly, again, in the way trance/demi rotations cause you to feel like your playing with a private limit break/summon gauge. That doesn't really need to be touched, though again I am not sure egis are long for this world.
The issue is that A: The Egi's visuals and combat animations are bad, and B: They are very seperate from your character, leading to you feeling like your just casting Ruin and poison spells while your summon does its own thing.
This is not a hard problem to fix. Again, just make Egi assault and Enkindle more visually linked to your character and make the Egi become more visually impressive when you cast it. People are asking for a SMN rework because they can spot the problem (Egis don't feel good or summonery) but are imagining it as a potency problem rather than a visuals/gamefeel issue.
In XIV 'selling' the attack matters more for the job fantasy in a lot of ways, part of why Bloodletter feels more 'impactful' than a rando dancer attack despite the fact the dancer attack being more potency is Bloodletter really lets you know through your character's actions and the animation its a big deal despite a bad potency. Part of why MNK feels so bad is that it depends mostly on basic attack GCD animations. A little TLC for SMN's animations without touching a single thing about its mechanics would probably do a lot to make everyone happy, SMN mains and Summoner lovers.
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06-08-2021 11:07 AM #21Player
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(0)
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06-08-2021 11:28 AM #22Player
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Again, though, if you summon Siren in your system, you are not playing a Summoner, you are playing a Bard.
Originally Posted by Dyvid
As a Bard, do you want anything to do with summoning Siren, let alone any summoning whatsoever?
As a BLM, do you want anything to do with summoning Diablos?
As a WHM, do you want anything to do with summoning (SCH's latest pet) Seraph?
They have nothing to do with those job kit's intended playflows or themes, and yet would most definitely siphon from their budgets in terms of available buttons and capacity.
Why? Why would you plague every job with the abandoned viscera of another?(0)
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06-08-2021 11:33 AM #23Player
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Is this something it's trying to do though?
Originally Posted by dezzmont
Evoke the job fantasy established in other games?
I hear this every once in awhile and I'm not so sure...
When talking about Viera (prior to their release) Yoshi P emphasized that what we'll be getting are not the Viera from FF12, or Tactics, or from another title, but Viera from FF14. This is something he stressed again prior to Male Viera: that we are getting FF14's version of something. This is even something he's had to address after making bosses and locations based on something from another game (this isn't the same Crystal Tower from FF3, etc.)
With this in mind, and considering what primals are like in FF14, I don't think they're trying to shoot for "capturing the job fantasy" established in other titles, but trying to capture what being a SMN would be like on Eorzea.
Is this good?
Is this bad?
I don't know. That's not what I'm getting at.
There's nothing wrong with wanting SMN to capture the fantasy of summoners from another game, but the devs have shown no interest in doing that. And a lot of the "bellyaching" IMO seems to stem more from people not understanding the dev's aim and then being unhappy that SMN is not what they're expecting.(3)
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06-08-2021 12:42 PM #24Player
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This doesn't pass the sniff test for multiple reasons.
Originally Posted by ItMe
For one, sure it has to be its own thing, but SMN's STORY evokes the concept of summoners from other games. And in a way, not only is SMN bad at reflecting the job over FF games, but its bad at representing what being a summoner would be like in Eorzea.
The job quests don't talk about your powerful ruin and biomancy magic, and the Summoner NPCs you face down aren't tossing little tiny chicken nugget rock formations at you while most of the damage comes from them. Even in this universe, Egis are meant to be powerful primal slaying tools that reflect a fraction of the primal's power the summoner is able to wield. It isn't like its a critical part of the lore that the egi is lame or unimpressive, its actually sorta the opposite, they are meant to be powerful and intimidating but the SMN just... gets a pile of chicken nuggets.
Furthermore, arguing that the job having a bad 'feel' is intentional is silly. No one goes out of their way to make the keystone feature of a class in a game deliberately not interesting or exciting. It is super clear that pets overall are a badly dated legacy mechanic that the devs... don't... like? It isn't on purpose that the egi's abilities feel limp and the job is 'really' about your ruin spells: that is WHY they have been reworking them and trying to get them into a better space. Part of the very pitch of SHB's summoner rework was, in fact, a boldfaced admittance that they aren't where they should be in terms of gamefeel, its why they said 'we want to make you ACTUALLY feel like a summoner.'
And finally, even if it was intentional, does that make it better? If the design is so contentious and considered, at best, mechanically interesting but thematically a weird failure, I don't think saying 'it is on purpose' or 'the fact its that way reflects what this job would be in the world.' And I don't think the devs agree with that sentiment either, its why MCH got such a substantial rework into a new job: They were very aware MCH didn't feel good or really like the characters who inspired it, so even though it isn't fully Edgar it more resembles him than the non-thematic mush the job used to be. Job fantasy is absurdly important to the devs and they talk about it a lot. If the job is failing to deliver what it is 'promising' its a failure regardless of it was intended or not, and I think it is super fair to say that even in the context of the XIV story Summoner does a cruddy job at reflecting what it 'should' be.
Again, I think summoner is mechanically very solid, but if you think its gamefeel is where it should be, the devs are signaling pretty hard they disagree.
Just take some of the models from the job quests of enemy 'supercharged' egis and just make egi assaults turn em into that for a moment. Just change the visuals so its more clear there is a summoner-egi link in attacks, and the job is instantly made a lot better despite no mechanical OR lore changes. They don't need crazy super-spells or every job getting a summon, but its been a long standing point of contention that the Job-quest NPC summons and Egis are visually cooler and better than ours for no good reason, in a job that not only has bad aesthetics, but really needs to be about crazy good aesthetics because that is sorta what summons low key are in FF.(1)Last edited by dezzmont; 06-08-2021 at 12:46 PM.
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06-08-2021 01:03 PM #25Player
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You seem to be exaggerating the idea of "evoking (heh, summoners, evoking) the job fantasy" that they are trying to convey. I mean, the Summoner is invoking the trappings of previous final fantasy summoners. Look at their artifact armour, look at their summoning pool. Look sideways at Dragoon. They're basically Kain as a create your own character.
Originally Posted by ItMe
The idea that they aren't evoking the classic classes is poppycock. They are absolutely putting their own spin on things, naturally, both in terms of mechanics and lore, but that's the bones they're putting the summoner wrapping around. Every FF has it's own take on the different classes, and Summoner is probably the least consistent of the core classes.
The gameplay of XIV requires that the classes be different (Imagine if Dragoon had three options, attack, jump, and use item).
TL/DR: They are evoking the classic job. They are also changing things. They have to, otherwise they may as well just make Final fantasy V again.
Edit: exaggerating may be too strong a word. overstating may be more correct.(0)Last edited by ChazNatlo; 06-08-2021 at 01:11 PM.
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06-08-2021 01:37 PM #26Player
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Perhaps. I refrained from commenting on if it was doing it well. Just what I felt it was trying to do.
Originally Posted by dezzmont
Yeah, that's kinda weird. Though the PLD job quests (for example) don't really mention their magic. So there is precedent for the job quests not trying to weave every core move we have into the job's story.
Originally Posted by dezzmont
I dunno man, I mean, it's kind of like the NIN job quests. Many of the ninjas we fight are similar to us, but they all have unique things that come from learning their art differently and using it for different things.
Originally Posted by dezzmont
For SMN, some of our opponents summon many things at once (like the allegan opponent from the level 70 quest).
Some of them summon cool supercharged egi.
The WoL, for better or worse, has been focusing on trances.
You're right. It would be silly to sabotage a job like that. And I never argued they made it intentionally bad.
Originally Posted by dezzmont
If I wasn't clear somewhere that lead to such a misreading of my post please point it out to me so I can correct it.
Yeah. While trying to make FF14's version of a summoner they're struggling mightily.
Originally Posted by dezzmont
I don't know who Edgar is, but when I picked MCH up in Shadow Bringers I felt it did a pretty good job feeling like something that could emerge from the MCH guild.
Originally Posted by dezzmont
Like a FF14 version of a machinist.
But that's neither here nor there.
Perhaps it is failing.
Originally Posted by dezzmont
Perhaps it isn't where it should be.
Those are not things I was commenting on as I felt it was tangential to my point.
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Nah, I think I'm just being misunderstood.
Originally Posted by ChazNatlo
Case in point, the next thing I quote is you trying to argue against me by using my own argument as if it's not what I'm trying to talk about:
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M ABOUT~
Originally Posted by ChazNatlo
FF14's SMN is not 100% new and unique to it, but the FF14 version of summoner is at the core of SMN.
The bones of SMN are FF14's spin on summoner (with the traditional job identity wrapped around that), not a "traditional summoner" with FF14 sprinkled on top.(1)Last edited by ItMe; 06-08-2021 at 01:47 PM.
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06-08-2021 02:48 PM #27Player
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My point wasn't that you were wrong, just that the argument that "This is XIV's own thing, it shouldn't be like other Final Fantasy games" is forcing a divide of "It isn't that, it is this." when it is, in fact, both. While there are undoubtedly many people playing this game because they heard it was a good MMO and they liked what they played so they stayed, there are also many people that have are playing it because they are fans of Final Fantasy, and playing the Jobs they like from other Final Fantasy games. I said "[FFXIV's mechanics and lore are] the bones they're putting the summoner wrapping around" but I could have just as easily said "They've taken the bones of classic Final Fantasy summoner and wrapped it up in their own mechanics and lore". The metaphor holds up either way (I could have also said "The Job is Lisa del Giocondo, and the XIV interpretation of it is the Mona Lisa", but given the broader topic of discussion, comparing the job to a noteworthy work of art is somewhat strong.)
Originally Posted by ItMe
Edit: To elaborate, since I can read this to feel like I'm saying you are saying that they are being original with their Summoner, which you are not.
I interpreting your stance to be that they are making their thing, and tying it design wise to the classic Summoner job, While I am saying that it is their original interpretation of the summoner job. The distinction is the direction they are going. one has them design a game vocation, and then fit the Job over it like a glove, the other is them taking the Classic Job and making it fit the system and world they have built.(1)Last edited by ChazNatlo; 06-08-2021 at 02:57 PM.
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06-08-2021 10:00 PM #28Player
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I think it also serves as precedent for 'every ability doesn't need to be justified by the lore explicitly talking about it, especially in the case of PLD where casting magic is a huge part of their FF identity, and people DID sorta ask 'where is it, besides flash?'
Originally Posted by ItMe
One of the real strengths of FFXIV in a lot of ways is evoking older game concepts. How do you handle jobs that historically have access to white magic and the ability to be quite powerful healers (PLD and RDM) despite not being healers? What about non-DoM with Black Magic, like NIN? It isn't 1:1, but they do a good job of capturing these trappings.
Right but its SUPER core to mine! Yes, XIV's summoner CAN'T be a re-implementation of old summoners and it doesn't have to be slavishly loyal to old ones, but summons are suuuuuper iconic to FF overall and a huge part of every game's cosmology is addressing them. XIV did a great job in some ways (They are fantastically awesome bosses!) but in the way you access them it didn't do so great, both in general and in its own fiction, and this is almost certainly the primary 'pain point' that gets people asking for summoner reworks so often.
Originally Posted by ItMe
SMN is in a weird spot among the trifecta of 'pain classes' (BRD, MNK, and SMN, who consistently are losers in satisfaction/rework polls) because while they get updates to their basic spells and, again, TRULY well designed trances and demis, their basic egi they spend a lot of their time with and with which they are encouraged to base their job identity around has... really bad animations and despite being arguably the most visually prominent part of why you are a summoner it actually does a very bad job at it.
If you are already invested in summoner and enjoy its rotation (which, again, is a delight, its like having your own private limit break and is a 10/10 on MECHANICALLY evoking summoners in FF games), this isn't a problem because you already emotionally bought into the job. But if you haven't, or you have but still really love old FF jobs, its still an actively negative part of the job's experience that sorta... has to be addressed? No change to SMN will ever fix its core issues that keep coming up until you look at the source of the complaints, which is really not 'the egi is low potency' or 'its not fun how much getting rezzed hurts your rotation' as much as 'EGI FEEL BAD.'
That seems like a very shallow complaint, but it isn't, that is a huge part of what separates a merely good experience (Which is not worth paying a monthly fee for, as any WoW killer found out) from a great one.(2)
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06-08-2021 10:38 PM #29Player
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Fully agree.
Originally Posted by dezzmont
...Now if only there were more threads starting from more or less brass-tack details by which to make Egis not objectively terrible instead of beginning from requests to burn SMN to the ground (or literally remove it as a job)...(2)
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06-09-2021 12:39 AM #30Player
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Ah, that's very true.
Originally Posted by ChazNatlo
No, I think we have the same stance here.
Originally Posted by ChazNatlo
/fistbump?
No shade on OP, but I agree.
Originally Posted by ChazNatlo
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Egis are beautiful and adorable and... yeah... very little fun to use...
Originally Posted by dezzmont
I don't pretend to understand job design philosophy (that I don't understand the appeal of BLM shows me just how much I don't get), but when even a dummy like me can play SMN and be underwhelmed by the egi...
I wonder what things would have been like if instead of splitting off into SCH, SMN split off into the trance summoner and into an egi focused one...(0)
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