Healers Angry when PLD Clemencies

[kaynide]

Use it if you want to use it. If the Pld self self heals, the healer can just do more DPS, no?

I don’t know the numbers for peak performance, surely someone does know who puts out more dps between the two...but outside of that endgame situation, who cares?

Moreover, if you decide not to heal and the healer screws up and the party wipes, wouldn’t that be a bigger waste of time than the 3 seconds of lost dps?

Use it! Get comfortable using it! And in certain situations, understand you don’t even need a dedicated healer.

As a PLD when my group does treasure hunts, I AM THE HEALER
(We roll Pld Drk Brd Rdm Sam)

[SturmChurro]

Use it if you want to use it. If the Pld self self heals, the healer can just do more DPS, no?

You'd think that. However, I've seen a lot of PLD who start using it for the rest of runs at about 70% health. Stating it's because they "aren't getting healed" - actually no, they aren't getting overhealed. So, I have seen some PLD complain for the rest of runs about "lack of heals", but if they are just going to use clemency - why do they need to be healed? It's a lose lose situation for you as a healer, no matter what. Some tanks actually just want to be at 100% HP at all times. I've seen many PLD use clemency for that purpose.

[kaynide]

You'd think that. However, I've seen a lot of PLD who start using it for the rest of runs at about 70% health. Stating it's because they "aren't getting healed" - actually no, they aren't getting overhealed. So, I have seen some PLD complain for the rest of runs about "lack of heals", but if they are just going to use clemency - why do they need to be healed? It's a lose lose situation for you as a healer, no matter what. Some tanks actually just want to be at 100% HP at all times. I've seen many PLD use clemency for that purpose.

I mean, in a casual, non endgame raid perspective, does that really matter as long as the content is cleared in a reasonable amount of time? If the time in dungeon is getting bogged down because of overhealing, isn’t that more of a problem of the 2 DPS players’ damage output?

Peak vs competitent-but-casual we aren’t seeing a wipe-vs-success situation, but a few minutes of time shaved.

[Shurrikhan]

I mean, in a casual, non endgame raid perspective, does that really matter as long as the content is cleared in a reasonable amount of time? If the time in dungeon is getting bogged down because of overhealing, isn’t that more of a problem of the 2 DPS players’ damage output?

Peak vs competitent-but-casual we aren’t seeing a wipe-vs-success situation, but a few minutes of time shaved.

Imo, it matters if/when intended as snide BM -- otherwise, only insofar as it's wasteful of party resources (especially if oGCDs are being held at the ready because you'd just turn them or your Clemency into overhealing), much like failure to dodge AoEs or to use your own oGCDs.

Will it fail a run? No.
Does it make the run take longer? Yes.
Is it (in the aforementioned context, specifically) a mistake you could improve from? Yes.
Is generally good to make what improvements one can, especially in the vein of being more aware of and conveniencing towards one another? Yes.

Clemency is a hell of a heal, honestly, and prior to attaining Holy Circle was certainly worth casting outside of FoF for further healer AoE uptime, but its increased opportunity costs as of Shadowbringers (alongside, to some degree, decreased opportunities afforded for one's healers) will generally push it slightly below the threshold of just continuing as normal. It's not badly unoptimal, and still has a tremendous(ly cheesy-good) place for spot-healing, but using Clemency except in very particular circumstances does tend to make things both less effective and less convenient in a typical dungeon run.

[TroySoFab]

How much are you using it? If you are just trying to assist with general heals, don't do that. Clemency is mainly a self heal. Healers have enough in their kit to deal with expected, and unexpected damage.

[Gruntler]

Use it if you want to use it. If the Pld self self heals, the healer can just do more DPS, no?

Spending a Holy Spirit to get a Glare is not always good value--especially in cases where the cost to the healer is to use Afflatus instead. So you're trading 500+ tank potency for 75 healer potency. Does that actually seem like value to you?

The Paladin self-healing costs damage, so you can't just look at it from the 'healer can spam damage' more angle, you have to include that cost.

This is why Paladin self-healing isn't the same as Warrior self-healing, which does not cost damage, and is therefore all upside.

[kaynide]

Spending a Holy Spirit to get a Glare is not always good value--especially in cases where the cost to the healer is to use Afflatus instead. So you're trading 500+ tank potency for 75 healer potency. Does that actually seem like value to you?

The Paladin self-healing costs damage, so you can't just look at it from the 'healer can spam damage' more angle, you have to include that cost.

This is why Paladin self-healing isn't the same as Warrior self-healing, which does not cost damage, and is therefore all upside.

My point was outside of endgame raids etc, that level of min-maxing is irrelevant as long as the Pld isn’t spamming. I view it the same way as healer adding dps: As long as they are doing anything to add to the dps pile, fine by me.
A difference of 10 minutes in a dungeon or whatever is a thing and in that case, sure..rotations need to be checked (probably more on the dps members...)

..., but doing fairly well but not optimal will at worst delay by a minute or two. Not that big a deal that it merits some kind of “zomg don’t use clemency”.

[Gruntler]

My point was outside of endgame raids etc, that level of min-maxing is irrelevant as long as the Pld isn’t spamming.

That's not 'that level of min-maxing.'

It's recognizing that a Holy Spirit is worth more than a Glare.

Honestly, an attitude that some people have in this community is that any level of play beyond 'I queued up' is 'advanced level min-maxing' and that's just not true. Recognizing that a number is higher than another number is a basic part of playing this game, and you're expected to recognize it.

And bear in mind the context--it's when someone is claiming that using Holy Clemency is to free up healer dps--we're already at that context of min-maxing so suddenly going 'harumph well, we don't need to do that level of min-maxing' as a retort is just bad argumentation. If you have 'freeing up healer dps' in mind, then you're in a raid dps mindset and if you're in a raid dps mindset, Holy Spirit > Glare. It's a well meaning idea that doesn't work out.

[kaynide]

That's not 'that level of min-maxing.'

It's recognizing that a Holy Spirit is worth more than a Glare.

Honestly, an attitude that some people have in this community is that any level of play beyond 'I queued up' is 'advanced level min-maxing' and that's just not true. Recognizing that a number is higher than another number is a basic part of playing this game, and you're expected to recognize it.

And bear in mind the context--it's when someone is claiming that using Holy Clemency is to free up healer dps--we're already at that context of min-maxing so suddenly going 'harumph well, we don't need to do that level of min-maxing' as a retort is just bad argumentation. If you have 'freeing up healer dps' in mind, then you're in a raid dps mindset and if you're in a raid dps mindset, Holy Spirit > Glare. It's a well meaning idea that doesn't work out.

The OP topic is about healers getting angry when a PLD uses Clemency. My entire post line has been clearly towards non-end-game use of Clemency, where I have said it just doesn't really matter that X is better than Y when we're not going to be in the instance more than like, 25 minutes. And we're 99% guaranteed to clear it.

Could the PLD put out more DPS doing Holy Spirit? Sure. Not my point. I was simply saying should the PLD decide they want to use Clemency (which I think is fine) the healer has the option of just doing more DPS, or... not?

The content of most of the game just doesn't demand a player be at that level, so it's a disservice to "teach" a new player that they should never use Clemency, or that they should even need to worry about thinking that deeply about it.

I'm of the mind that I see someone interested in playing a Tank, and I want to encourage that without making them feel like they have to do 3D chess about what they should or shouldn't do in casual play. More tanks = faster queues for everyone.

I have nothing to add to endgame raids as I don't do them and you could be entirely right there, but that's not the part of the game I'm talking about.

[Iscah]

It can be frustrating if the paladin's idea of when they need to use it overlaps with your idea of "not 100% HP but comfortable" so they're casting it before you ever get to heal them.

But in other cases it can be helpful if things have gotten messy and you're scrambling to heal them enough.