Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 2)

Originally Posted by Lauront

I find myself asking the same question. Perhaps people are now too used to the rather hackneyed concept that higher beings must be brought down in some way because they're simply too powerful, too conceited or whatever (not much different IMO to the constant doom mongering we hear about modern technological advancement from some quarters), but I don't really see it as implied in the lore, and in any case, I would not see potential stagnation as adequate reason to sunder the entire star or for them to simply "move on" from their entire civilisation being wiped out. To the point that such a theme, including anything resembling 7's "cries of the Planet", would simply ring hollow with me.

With 5.2 as well as 5.3 and Elidibus's story and their events now concluded, my thoughts lean towards the entire war of light and dark being two well-intentioned parties entrenched in their position, itself born of a tragic event that hit a highly advanced society out of the blue, reducing it almost back to where it began without intervention.

In any case, I thought their interview commentary here was quite good:



As was this:




...and of course this:






Almost all societal conduct is founded on "repression" to some extent, mostly because it facilitates mutual cooperation to do so (=is a method of establishing boundaries), and yes, they choose to channel their individuality and talents in specific ways. It makes perfect sense for a race endowed with their capabilities, and perhaps one they adopted after harsh experience taught them so. Further worth noting the English framing of it is rather particular, in referring to the Amaurotine as "patronising", whereas the French goes with "well meaning" or "kindly" (=charitable.)

Beyond that, Amaurot is implied to have held itself to a high standard (as per the dialogue of newly initiated citizens, particularly notable in the German edition; thanks to Neila Nuruodo for these), so perhaps it was simply the price of living there. None of it really strikes me as an adequate reason to conclude they were going to collapse anyway, much less to justify sundering the star.



Given what we are now seeing with Fandaniel, I am more minded to believe something or someone had studied them well enough to understand how to bring them down should it exploit their anxieties by letting them, and by implication their creation magicks, run amok, and may have done so via the precipitating sound.

An excellent post, as always - and well sourced, too!

It really does come down to a matter of perspective, as Yoshi-P and the writers themselves have stated on more than one occasion. As such, the prudent course would be for people to agree to disagree on the matter of morality.

Many of us come here not to discuss who is 'right' or 'wrong' but to discuss the actions and consequences of various characters and factions as they move through the plot.

I don't think we need to resort to personal insults or accusations of 'simpery'. Especially when this board has, for years, engaged in pseudo-worship of characters such as Hydaelyn.

We all come here because we enjoy the game on some level. We can all bond over that - but let's keep things civil, yeah?

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Could you explain in what ways, the sundered proved themselves capable where the unsundered failed?

Time Travel and shard hopping without giving up the physical body, G'raha and the ironworks successfully time travelled and altered history, G'raha also managed to bring us body and soul to the 1st.

If the Unsundered could do time travel, they would have to undo the Sundering, if the Unsundered could shard hop freely with their bodies none of them would need to posses locals.

Originally Posted by Theodric

An excellent post, as always - and well sourced, too!

It really does come down to a matter of perspective, as Yoshi-P and the writers themselves have stated on more than one occasion. As such, the prudent course would be for people to agree to disagree on the matter of morality.

Many of us come here not to discuss who is 'right' or 'wrong' but to discuss the actions and consequences of various characters and factions as they move through the plot.

I don't think we need to resort to personal insults or accusations of 'simpery'. Especially when this board has, for years, engaged in pseudo-worship of characters such as Hydaelyn.

We all come here because we enjoy the game on some level. We can all bond over that - but let's keep things civil, yeah?

Simpery might be too harsh, but as someone who enjoyed him (Emet) a great deal it is annoying and reduces my enjoyment of his arc when people try to convince me that he was right when the game clearly presents him as in the wrong. His motivations are understandable, and even sympathetic, but he is still a villain and is committing evil acts.

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Correct me if im wrong, but in order to accomplish their time travel feat, they needed the assisstance of an Unsundered (Omega) and a primal (Alex). So its not really of their own doing, they needed assistance from higher up beings. Rift travel btw is feasible - we know it from Hades, because he summons Azem using the ancient incantation. The ironworks feat simply caused the timelines to diverge, that timeline may endure, but it was not changed. So even should the Ancients have resorted to time travel, it would create a new timeline but not alter their own. I'm not saying btw the sundered arent necessarily non-inventive, but they are weaker than the ancients in some respects.

Omega is not an unsundered, but rather a being like Midgardsomr. A being outside that paradigm. Furthermore, it took the usage of the Crystal Tower. A structure build by "lesser" beings.

Originally Posted by Caurcas

Simpery might be too harsh, but as someone who enjoyed him (Emet) a great deal it is annoying and reduces my enjoyment of his arc when people try to convince me that he was right when the game clearly presents him as in the wrong. His motivations are understandable, and even sympathetic, but he is still a villain and is committing evil acts.

Except the devs clearly say this isn’t a black and white story. It isn’t a story of good vs evil in the traditional sense. Like they say, it’s a matter of perspective. To him and the ancients we are the villains, allowing a broken world and preventing them from saving their loved ones and reforming them to who they once were. Again this is something stated by the devs themselves. People can go ahead and deny it all they want, but i choose to believe the people who created the game and story over people who let their feelings get in the way of the truth of things.

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Correct me if im wrong, but in order to accomplish their time travel feat, they needed the assisstance of an Unsundered (Omega) and a primal (Alex). So its not really of their own doing, they needed assistance from higher up beings. Rift travel btw is feasible - we know it from Hades, because he summons Azem using the ancient incantation. The ironworks feat simply caused the timelines to diverge, that timeline may endure, but it was not changed. So even should the Ancients have resorted to time travel, it would create a new timeline but not alter their own. I'm not saying btw the sundered arent necessarily non-inventive, but they are weaker than the ancients in some respects.

Oh so your saying, if I came up with a revolutionary way to be able to turn cheese into gold due to the life experiences I have experienced that it is in fact not my own doing that I came up with that idea that later becomes possible due to descendants continuing to try, but those random people I came across during my life experiences doing instead.

>_>

Cid created the plans for time travel due to his experiences with both Omega and Alexander, Alexander is a primal created by who? oh yes the sundered people, and it is not like Omega didn't arrive during the Allagan Empire further advancing their civilisation through reverse engineering, oh wait yes it did, also at the time of writing his plan Omega was in the tiny toy robot that accompanied Alpha so Omega couldn't help even if it wanted to. Who was it that founded the Allagan Empire, I believe it was Emet-Selch as Xande as he knew full well what the Crystal Tower was capable of and was why he even took G'raha away in the final act of 5.0.

Emet did not know how G'raha and the Crystal Tower came to be there and wanted that knowledge certainly sounds a lot like the Sundered figured how to do something the Unsundered didn't. Omega and Alexander were nothing but life experiences for Cid, Cid himself figured out how to do it because of these. Trying to cheapen Cid's and the ironworks accomplishment because of how his life went is disingenuous.



Final note, the ancient people had far longer lifespans, more magical ability, we know more about Amourotines but the wider world is far more unknown and can hardly be commented on, Amourotines may have never seen war but had the rest of their world?, too little information, putting them on a pedestal as the superior beings is quite frankly a little unnerving because even with Amourant and it's people we have such little information to really confirm they were a better race and in fact they seem just as flawed as they made mistakes(Phoenix creation, possibly Hydelyn and Zodiark).

If it weren't your intent to place them on this pedestal your words certainly didn't convey that well.