Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 2)

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Is it really that hard to accept that—whatever nefarious things the Ascians are up to now—the people they once were didn't deserve to be driven to extinction?

It's not hard to accept it. My only question is...what was the rest of the world like? Right now we've only really seen the "Sharlayan" of the old world. Judging from the Tales from the Shadow story that mentioned Azem and the grapes, odds are there were quite a few places in the world that were much like the smaller town/village stuff we see currently in FFXIV. Azem wouldn't just prevent a volcano from erupting just for grapes...there were lives on that island at stake. And considering they were in actual danger and didn't just create something for themselves to live on that would protect against the volcano, I have a sneaking suspicion that Creation magic was far rarer or weaker outside Amaurot than we are led to believe.

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

snip.

Human in the sense we all have souls, thoughts, and feelings? Yes. Human in the sense that current humanoid races aren't willing to genocide all the beast tribes to summon Hydaelyn, unlike a certain race of Ancients would Zodiark? No. That distinction has to stand. As we continue to see the Eorzean alliance make peace with and work toward saving the planet with those beast tribes, those souls that have been fractured to create the life that exists now are superior in the humanity department. The Ancients with all their knowledge and godlike powers still couldn't evolve spiritually, whereas current life has, so they deserve to be the stewards of the star, not The Ancients.

I also agree that the Ancients weren't sterile, but I think the intention of being seen as a child in Emet's recreation was intentional. Every private conversation between the WOL and Emet were leading to moment we got to "his" recreation of Amarout. Emet wanted us to experience it as children. He wanted us to look at things with the wonder of a child to stir the echo and reminisce about what once was and who we were. The whole experience has been filtered to stagger our understanding so we see it differently. That being said, we must not forget that Emet claimed "the Sound" was born of their (Ancient's) hubris. This is idea that fault was sugar coated to "we were so great, but destiny was against us" is just an admission of guilt with the least amount of ownership. That is an excuse a child gives because they lack the maturity to learn from their faults.

Originally Posted by Kesey

Human in the sense we all have souls, thoughts, and feelings? Yes. Human in the sense that current humanoid races aren't willing to genocide all the beast tribes to summon Hydaelyn, unlike a certain race of Ancients would Zodiark?

I beg your pardon? Only a single individual was ever known to have been sacrificed to summon Zodiark: Elidibus, and he was a willing volunteer. The two sacrifices afterwards, also done with volunteers, were for the sake of stopping the apocalypse and restoring life to the world. And the only things we know about the third planned sacrifice is that the Convocation was going to offer up a portion of the life Zodiark restored in order to bring back the aforementioned volunteers. That is a far cry from genocide, and we don't even know if they were going to look for volunteers or not since the whole plan was cut off by Hydaelyn attacking Zodiark.

As for summoning Hydaelyn—not that we even can, since she already exists—I would point to Phoenix, Alexander, the Hard/Extreme versions of the ARR Primals (which actually had story leadups to their summonings, rather than it being holodeck simulation/the WoL thinking themselves half to death), and Shinryu.

Phoenix was a primal accidentally summoned by Louisoix, and whose existence both Alisaie and Alphinaud agreed to omit from their reports on the events of the raid questline. The reason for that was the fear that any number of Eorzeans, still dealing with the damage caused by the 7th Umbral Calamity, would love to summon a primal with Phoenix's power. And as seen with the Alexander raids, they were absolutely right to believe that when two separate groups both attempted to summon Alexander with the intent of using him to create a perfect world—Mide and her beloved (along with their followers) for the good of all, and the Illuminati for themselves. Were it not for Alexander himself calculating that the best possible world was one where he sealed himself away rather than exert his power for anything resembling a good cause, the damage they would've inflicted onto the world would have been a calamity in its own right.

The ARR Primals, meanwhile, had their rematches reveal that the Beastmen summoning them were using living sacrifices to make them more powerful than they would have been with crystals alone. This is carried forward and played for all the drama they could with Titan's reappearance in Heavensward, as Gabu discovered when his own parents were killed for the ritual to summon Titan. And finally, there's Ilberd's plot to summon a primal of his own making—one that would lay waste to everything in its path, including the Eorzaean Alliance and even his own countrymen. He had every single man and woman serving under him slaughtered to empower this summoning, with the only survivors being the two who pulled the trigger. He even killed himself, allowing his own dying rage to take root in the primal's consciousness. This was not, by any stretch of the imagination, the product of "superior humanity" or "evolved spirituality".

So again, I don't understand. Maybe I need to rephrase my question. Why is it that the current generation of humanity has to be better than the Ancients in morality, or spirituality, or creativity, or fertility?

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I beg your pardon? Only a single individual was ever known to have been sacrificed to summon Zodiark: Elidibus, and he was a willing volunteer. The two sacrifices afterwards, also done with volunteers, were for the sake of stopping the apocalypse and restoring life to the world.

"Zodiark, embodiment of darkness, will of the planet made manifest, and the original primal, came into being when the Convocation of Fourteen sacrificed half of the population to induct a summoning to avert an impending Calamity that befell their world."

They needed a lot more than just him, though they were all willing.

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

They weren't a cult of evil conformists who reacted to any display of individuality with murder or brainwashing. And yes, I have seen that take before and it's as ludicrous as it sounds.

Minus the extreme punishment, one of the few Amaurotine sidequests from which we can grasp their culture has us being told off for daring to wear something other than the communal robes.

http://garlandtools.org/db/#quest/69130

I must say, little one...those garments you're wearing. They are your own original concepts, I take it? Clearly they must be, given their rather...singular flamboyance.
I would never dream of stifling a fledgling creator's creativity, but to parade about in your cultivated individuality is hardly praiseworthy.
An Amaurotine of character shares their creations with the community─they do not hoard them for their use alone. To delight in disparity is a mark of the morally deficient.
Disparity engenders feelings of want and resentment, which degrade the bonds of fellowship. Thus do we encourage creators to share and share alike, else we risk kindling the embers of covetousness and violence that ever smolder in the hearts of all.
Therefore I must implore you, little one, to cast aside your original trappings and don the communal robes, that you might acquit yourself as an equal among many. In so doing, you will be afforded greater respect and autonomy.

It sounds more like "everyone will regard you as incredibly rude and/or an idiot if you don't follow the social rules" than "we will actively punish you for not complying", but there is definitely societal pressure to conform in appearance even if they are free to express themselves in other ways.

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I beg your pardon? Only a single individual was ever known to have been sacrificed to summon Zodiark: Elidibus, and he was a willing volunteer. The two sacrifices afterwards, also done with volunteers, were for the sake of stopping the apocalypse and restoring life to the world. And the only things we know about the third planned sacrifice is that the Convocation was going to offer up a portion of the life Zodiark restored in order to bring back the aforementioned volunteers. That is a far cry from genocide, and we don't even know if they were going to look for volunteers or not since the whole plan was cut off by Hydaelyn attacking Zodiark.

I don't have the quote to reference now, but I'm pretty sure the first mass sacrifice was to provide the aether to summon Zodiark so he could halt the Final Days, and presumably Elidibus was a key part of whatever ritual was carried out to summon him.

It's also worth noting that although the original plan was for "a portion" of life to be sacrificed back to Zodiark, Emet's rant at the Capitol prior to entering the Amaurot dungeon seems to indicate that the current plan is to sacrifice everyone who is left after the final calamity.

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

snip.

I don't think either Ancients or the current people are superior in fertility. Did you read my post where I said Amarout society was presented purposefully to your player character so they see the Ancient world in the wonderful rose shaded eyes of a child to provoke nostalgia?

And to address the beast tribes summoning primals, this has also been resolved as the cycle was perpetuated by tempered individuals and those individuals that could be saved are in the process of being saved. The tempering lasted through the original summonings, causing the cycle to continue and escalate. Now that can be stopped and we see all the beast tribes also don't want this to continue.

Regarding Elidibus and sacrificing people, I suggest you go back and review the story. Elidibus, as the heart of Zodiark, gets to form the frame work of the primal but doesn't empower it in it's entirety. Ancients had to be sacrificed numerous times and then they were going to kill all the life that had formed on the planets (which I equated to the beast tribes of our current existence). So yes there is a significant difference here. If the current humans of the star do not want to eradicate the the beast tribes to ensure their survival, then they are already morally and spirituality superior then the Ancients ever were. Which in turns justifies their survival over the Ancient's world.

Originally Posted by Yuella

And new life will be born replacing the new death, keeping the sundered world fresh and brings in new ideas. The world having immortal beings with no newborns would become stagnant, which is what happened to the Ancients.

New life is born in the rejoined world as well. They’re nigh-on immortal. They live for a long time but not forever. It’s not what happened to the Ancients at all, idk where you’re getting that idea. They had newborns just like anyone else. This is literally stated by many npcs in Amaurot lmao.

Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I know that some folks really want there to be some disastrous downside to the Ancients' world or their way of life but, to be frank... between Emet's Selch's illusory Amaurot and the short stories set during that era, nothing has ever been shown to even suggest this is the case. The worst thing anyone can say about them is that, despite being nigh-immortal demigods in their own right, the Ancients were still every bit as human as their successors races.

They weren't creatively sterile—at least two sidequests in Amaurot were dedicated to showing their efforts to create, along with the entirety of two level 80 dungeons (Akadaemia Anyder and Anamnesis Anyder). They weren't infertile, either—they mistake the WoL and friends for children upon our arrival to Amaurot, something that wouldn't make much sense if they didn't know what a child was or couldn't have them. Hell, one of the most popular takes on Elidibus's character is that he was a literal child (he's never called as such, but that scene near the end of 5.3 does suggest the possibility). They weren't a cult of evil conformists who reacted to any display of individuality with murder or brainwashing. And yes, I have seen that take before and it's as ludicrous as it sounds.

Is it really that hard to accept that—whatever nefarious things the Ascians are up to now—the people they once were didn't deserve to be driven to extinction?

It seems to be something hard for people to swallow because there’s this notion of they were either perfect beings or weren’t. In my mind, there’s no such thing as a perfect society or perfect beings, but they were pretty far up there. I think part of the reason why it might be hard for people to think that way(besides people just seeing every single thing as black and white good vs evil) is that typically in games, something like the sundered situation would be the “norm” of the story or world. Whereas something like the ancient society would be the abnormal. In 14’s case however it’s the opposite. The Ancient world is the norm. The sundering was a tragedy with grave consequences and is certainly an abnormal occurrence. As far as the Elidibus thing goes...that’s been debunked via other languages. Hes the same age range as graha aka early twenties at the youngest. People just took the size difference far too literal.

To me, it was never about there being anything "wrong" with the Ancients or them deserving what happened to them, it was more that there comes a point where the cost just isn't worth it, no matter how much you want something. We also don't even know what they want, the 3 remaining are making the choice for their whole people, the last time any of the Ancients had any input in the plan it was "Sacrifice newly born life to get back what we've lost" (this not taking into account those from the first two sacrifices never had any input at all and may not have consented to any sacrifices being made to undo their willing sacrifice, but I digress) The plan has drastically changed since then, and despite Emet's "You don't count as living" a lot of suffering has had to happen to even get 7/14th's of the way there.

I see it like this, if it was me and I lost everything and all I had left was this single ball of energy, I had no friends, no family, no world, nothing. However I knew that I could crush this ball and it would slowly crack and once it did I could use the released energy to restore all I had lost, the only catch was it would take me about oh, 12-20000 years to fully crush it, but I'm an eternal being, I'm patient, I've got all the time in the world, and I've got a goal and a duty to my people to save them.
However, with my powers, I could gaze into the ball, see time unwind before me, and see that over those 20000 years this simple ball of energy would create life, that would then become people. They were like me, but not as hardy, they grew old, and got sick, could be wounded and would perish, but they were determined and while their life was fleeting, they persisted and grew and advanced, building higher and ever growing, they were flawed, they wared and hurt one another but they also were good and helped one another, they were, complex.
I would learn with each crack I would put into the ball I would send great destruction and devastation over their world, each worse than the last all of this leading to one conclusion, for my people to return, they must die, faced with this fact I wouldn't be able to do it, I couldn't subject a people to thousands of years of suffering to get back what I felt I deserved.

Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

To me, it was never about there being anything "wrong" with the Ancients or them deserving what happened to them, it was more that there comes a point where the cost just isn't worth it, no matter how much you want something. We also don't even know what they want, the 3 remaining are making the choice for their whole people, the last time any of the Ancients had any input in the plan it was "Sacrifice newly born life to get back what we've lost" (this not taking into account those from the first two sacrifices never had any input at all and may not have consented to any sacrifices being made to undo their willing sacrifice, but I digress) The plan has drastically changed since then, and despite Emet's "You don't count as living" a lot of suffering has had to happen to even get 7/14th's of the way there.

I see it like this, if it was me and I lost everything and all I had left was this single ball of energy, I had no friends, no family, no world, nothing. However I knew that I could crush this ball and it would slowly crack and once it did I could use the released energy to restore all I had lost, the only catch was it would take me about oh, 12-20000 years to fully crush it, but I'm an eternal being, I'm patient, I've got all the time in the world, and I've got a goal and a duty to my people to save them.
However, with my powers, I could gaze into the ball, see time unwind before me, and see that over those 20000 years this simple ball of energy would create life, that would then become people. They were like me, but not as hardy, they grew old, and got sick, could be wounded and would perish, but they were determined and while their life was fleeting, they persisted and grew and advanced, building higher and ever growing, they were flawed, they wared and hurt one another but they also were good and helped one another, they were, complex.
I would learn with each crack I would put into the ball I would send great destruction and devastation over their world, each worse than the last all of this leading to one conclusion, for my people to return, they must die, faced with this fact I wouldn't be able to do it, I couldn't subject a people to thousands of years of suffering to get back what I felt I deserved.

The difference being though is that in allowing something like the sundering to stay, you’re causing more death in the long run than would be caused by rejoinings. So it’s a matter of, do we just allow that to happen and allow more death to be caused, or let the rejoining happen, have people be rejoined to their original selves, the world becomes stable again and there’s less death overall.