Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

I do think that trying to be so binary about Zodiark and Hydaelyn is a fool’s game since they are written to not be viewed that way. Let's take a step back and understand the ancient point of view towards the final day by taking a look at the side quest “Debate and Discourse”

Loquacious Amaurotine:
“As to the matter of what subject we shall debate today, I propose the recent calamity which has befallen our friends across the pond. What say you?”

“The singular point of contention is, of course, whether or not Amaurot should intervene on their behalf.”

“I believe we should. The scale of the disaster which threatens that distant metropolis is of a scale heretofore unseen, and so equally considerable resources must be committed to counteracting its effects.”

At this point we can infer three things.
-Amaurot is NOT the only civilization in the unsundered world
-They are one of if not the most powerful beings on the planet
-This calamity which we figure out is the beginning of the Final Days has never been seen up to this point in history

This is the viewpoint from someone who agrees with interventions. The counter point is-

Amaurotine Firebrand:

“I disagree. The scale concerns me less than the nature of the proposition itself. Who are we to unilaterally intervene in the affairs of those half a world away? Are we to be the saviors of one and all? Such arrogance may well lead to our own downfall.”

Though Amaurot has God like powers this guy believes to not intervene. Not out of a holier than thou attitude towards others but due to the idea of sovereignty.

It’s kind of the same idea of why Superman won’t kill. If they cross that moral line how easy does it become to blur everything else they set upon themselves. If Amaurot decides to play world police now how is that going to shape the world in the future?


No one likes being told what to do so having demi-gods interfering in your daily life telling you what is and isn’t correct doesn’t sound rad

At this point the WoL can respond in two ways. By dropping Louisoix’s favorite quote.

“To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom─it is indolence.”

Or instead with the more jaded answer of-

“We cannot save everyone. Sometimes, it is all we can do to save ourselves.”

Picking either option leads to the Loquacious Amaurotine citing that attempting to save these people could be a perfect opportunity to test their new creations as “What benefits Amaurot benefits all creation,”

And the Amaurotine Firebrand retorts with

“How readily you cede the moral high ground! Was not our young friend's point that we have an ethical obligation to aid those in need? Yet not only do you instead elect to focus on the benefit to Amaurot alone, but you also deprive our distant neighbors of the agency to determine their own fate!”

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

continuing my post above

At this point you're probably wondering “Why did this dweeb make such a long post for stuff we already know” Reason being I think this is one of THE MOST IMPORTANT side quests in the game because it allows you to take a peek at the mentality of the ancients

To say that they were just some snobs in an ivory tower or that they were loveable stewards of the planets misses half the picture. The emergence of the sound and the Ancients manifesting their nightmares was the first real tragedy the ancient world faced and they dropped the ball completely. But, we gotta understand WHY amaurot was already in overtime in the first place.

TL;DR it's impossible to boil down the ancients or their creations to X or Y because parties from both sides believe two very different ideas of what should be done.

[KizuyaKatogami]

At this point you're probably wondering “Why did this dweeb make such a long post for stuff we already know” Reason being I think this is one of THE MOST IMPORTANT side quests in the game because it allows you to take a peek at the mentality of the ancients

To say that they were just some snobs in an ivory tower or that they were loveable stewards of the planets misses half the picture. The emergence of the sound and the Ancients manifesting their nightmares was the first real tragedy the ancient world faced and they dropped the ball completely. But, we gotta understand WHY amaurot was already in overtime in the first place.

TL;DR it's impossible to boil down the ancients or their creations to X or Y because parties from both sides believe two very different ideas of what should be done.

Have to say i agree with 99% of your points, they’re really thought out and worded. The only thing i slightly disagree with is them “dropping the ball.” I feel the situation wasn’t something that could really be planned properly for. We’re told the crisis escalated very rapidly and they were trying to research the phenomenon as best they could it seems based on the lore entries. If it was indeed some kind of alien-like entity or even just something completely unknown to them i don’t think it’s their fault for not having planned for that. Other than that very great posts

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

Have to say i agree with 99% of your points, they’re really thought out and worded. The only thing i slightly disagree with is them “dropping the ball.” I feel the situation wasn’t something that could really be planned properly for. We’re told the crisis escalated very rapidly and they were trying to research the phenomenon as best they could it seems based on the lore entries. If it was indeed some kind of alien-like entity or even just something completely unknown to them i don’t think it’s their fault for not having planned for that. Other than that very great posts

yeah thats something I probably should have phrased better but I liked the "overtime" analogy lol. but you are 100% correct because as far as we know Zodiark wasn't the first choice "wish machine" will fix everything type deal. Elidibus sacrificing himself was pretty much after they were all at wits end, Amaurot the dungeon does an excellent job at illustrating the devestation!

[Lauront]

We can argue until the cows come home about whether Ardbert is tempered or not. He himself seemed undecided on the matter. Like I said, I don't consider it to be a particularly relevant point, irrespective of how or why it's manifesting, because of how fluid the concept is and the fact that it doesn't mean the same as mind control, so it doesn't add all that much one way or another for the time being. Nonetheless, the Word of the Mother is very clear in how she phrases it what the expectations upon him are. Whether he is tempered "makes sense" or not will depend on the shape and form of it.

As for Venat and her role, I agree on that point, they do hold her in high esteem and it is entirely possible she was a high ranking bureaucrat herself and acquired the concept in that manner.

Regarding the concept's origin, I bring that up to point out that it could be a possible explanation as to why it may have resulted in the entire world being sundered in spite of their wishes.

As for Azem, that is my point.

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

Was rewatching some cutscenes and just thought everyone should remember this line as it might be important in the Future

Venat:
"If Hydaelyn is to stand a chance of opposing Him, I am the only one who might serve as her heart"

As we know primals and creations are effected by the thoughts on has while summoning them. An example of the former; Ga bu's manifestation of Titan being very childlike and the Latter; Emet-Selch's recreation of Hythlodeus being more "sophisticated" as his mind wandered during his creation of Amaurot.

Elidibus being picked as the heart of Zodiark for his child like innocence and sense of morality also implies that "core" of the ancient "Primals" play a large factor in how they act.
(I put quotations around primal as Emet says primals after a fashion meaning that they are similar but not identical to what we know today)

Hydaelyn had a completely unique skill as mentioned above of "enervation" meaning that she was different to Zodiark in some ways

With that information we have two very important questions that must be answered:
-Is the heart of Zodiark and Hydaelyn conscious of what they are doing while in the drivers seat? (Will become important if the sundering is revealed to be intentional cause then we're able to place blame upon Venat since they knew what they were doing. Bonus! Venat willingly drop kicked a child and that's really funny)

-Why did Venat deny her other colleagues when they wanted to become the heart of Hydaelyn? Why did it HAVE to be Venat? What did she have that they didn't?

If the glowing figure/woman on the Endwalker art is indeed Venat it would give us much needed insight because even though Hydaelyn did help us out through the story she has also hasn't kept it 100 with the WoL either and whether you are team Zodiark, Team Hydaelyn, or waiting for more answers you have to concede Emet did a better job laying out his case than Hydaelyn has bothered to.

EDIT: Forgot to mention how did Venat's group get the blue prints to make something highly specialized to stop Zodiark? was one of them apart of the bureau of architects? Did they just reverse engineer hydaelyn from analyzing Zodiark? not sure if it's stated anywhere

[RyuDragnier]

-Why did Venat deny her other colleagues when they wanted to become the heart of Hydaelyn? Why did it HAVE to be Venat? What did she have that they didn't?

This is the big thing I'm wondering, just exactly who Venat is. Assume the abilities of Hydaelyn and Zodiark are linked to their hearts. Zodiark possesses powerful creation magick, much like Elidibus who was his heart. If the dividing power of Hydaelyn came from Venat...perhaps Venat had the powers to separate things? Since Hades mentioned that it was unheard of, it was likely not a power that came from Amaurot, they'd know of how it would work. The only things I can think of is either it being knowledge elsewhere in the world hidden even from the Amaurotines...or it's a power nobody on the Star could have, meaning it and Venat came from another Star.

[_Koneko_]

lets be fair if the power of the primal comes from its summoners if the mother crystal did not have dividing she would have lost she simply did not have enough followers it was most likely 100 % on purpose that the world was sundered as it was the only way to contain zodiark if zodiark is the will of the star like emet says then dividing the star would divide zodiark and thus remove his power by shattering it into 14 fragments

i would say hydaelyn was summoned in response to the never ending need for sacrifices to keep zodiark ancored in reality we know that by design the primals need huge amounts of aether in order to keep existing and with most of the ancients tempered they would happily keep giving him those sacrifices perhaps even giving him the new life would not bring their people back but was simply something the tempering persuaded them it would combined that with the huge amount of aether zodiark would need operate his powers you have a endless wheel of death that never stops for a goal that is unobtainable

and even if zodiark could bring those 50 % back how do we know they would be any different then when lakshmi brough back that dead daughter a false life

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

i would say hydaelyn was summoned in response to the never ending need for sacrifices to keep zodiark ancored in reality we know that by design the primals need huge amounts of aether in order to keep existing and with most of the ancients tempered they would happily keep giving him those sacrifices perhaps even giving him the new life would not bring their people back but was simply something the tempering persuaded them it would combined that with the huge amount of aether zodiark would need operate his powers you have a endless wheel of death that never stops for a goal that is unobtainable

and even if zodiark could bring those 50 % back how do we know they would be any different then when lakshmi brough back that dead daughter a false life

Both very reasonable and compelling questions! The timeline of events as we know are (correct me if I'm wrong)

-Everything is hunky dory in Amaurot and the Ancient world as a whole
-Someone hears a "keening" from the earth and the rest of the world starts experiencing a calamity
-Amaurot researches and discussed what to do about this as they are sitting on their hands the sound arrives
-Amaurot dungeon takes place shows us the devastation that occured
-The convocation as a last resort plans to summon Zodiark and Azem disagreeing with it leaves
-Half of Amaurotine life is sacrificed to bring Zodiark into existence and stop the final days
-Another half is then sacrificed to restore the capacity to host life

We know how the story goes from there.

Seeing as Zodiark's tempered sometimes actively go against the will you would assume he would want; the great rejoining. Looking at you Mitron! Compressing all of time and space to spend time with your girlfriend isn't restoring the ancient world >:^(. Maybe the convocation was fine with returning to stewards of the star after they got their gang back, if said homies would be whole is another question I don't have an answer to.

I could discuss the logistics of Zodiark/Hydaelyn tempering all day, it's super interesting! I've heard things from

"Maybe Hydaelyn tempers all the Warriors of Light so they don't get claimed by Zodiark and "Hear, Feel, Think" are her first commandments to restore their own will to them?" to

"Emet's words in Qitana Revel "Learn, look, and remember" being what Zodiark tells the Asican's to restore their memories of the ancient world"

[Anvaire]

lets be fair if the power of the primal comes from its summoners if the mother crystal did not have dividing she would have lost she simply did not have enough followers it was most likely 100 % on purpose that the world was sundered as it was the only way to contain zodiark if zodiark is the will of the star like emet says then dividing the star would divide zodiark and thus remove his power by shattering it into 14 fragments

i would say hydaelyn was summoned in response to the never ending need for sacrifices to keep zodiark ancored in reality we know that by design the primals need huge amounts of aether in order to keep existing and with most of the ancients tempered they would happily keep giving him those sacrifices perhaps even giving him the new life would not bring their people back but was simply something the tempering persuaded them it would combined that with the huge amount of aether zodiark would need operate his powers you have a endless wheel of death that never stops for a goal that is unobtainable

and even if zodiark could bring those 50 % back how do we know they would be any different then when lakshmi brough back that dead daughter a false life

I dont think that the Amaurtean creations needed an endless supply of Aether to continue to exist. The constructs like Zodiark and Hydealyn were created in a way that makes them permement and stable. Zodiark did need the energy to restore the original souls because he would need to plug the gap in power. I think this is why Emet say's they are primals after a fashion. It is implied that much of the modern monsters and creatures were originally constructs created by the Amaurteans that have existed past their ultimate fall. By this reckoning, it would mean that these too would fundementally be a primal.

I think there is a difference between primal summoning and the creation magic used by the amauroteans and i think the difference comes down to the amount of natural aether available and also how it is achieved. The Amauroteans seened to have a detailed plan of the construct meaning its shape and existence was set, while primals are loosely based on desire and belief which results in the fundamental shift in mentality with each subsequent summoning. Which becomes a strange self fulfilling cycle. The summoner calls forth the primal > the primal tempers> the tempered continue to summon > the summon retempers the only exception to this cycle seems to deities like Shiva, Thorden and Ramuh each of whom have their own characteristics. Shiva is a particulaly interesting incarnation as it means the primal would essentially temper herself with her own will if that is what is happening except that the echo would prevent that. Thorden also seemed himself after his defeat. Either way its an interesting concept.