Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[KizuyaKatogami]

Considering what we know of them, neither Hydaelyn nor Zodiark are good or evil. They are in effect highly sophisticated machines created for specific purposes; those purposes both had good intentions, but led to some very bad things from certain perspectives. (Zodiark did save the planet, but then the Convocation decided to let him eat new life for the purpose of necromancy; Hydaelyn was created specifically to stop Zodiark, but ended up wrecking the whole planet.)

Zodiark himself is not evil, as he only responds to the wishes of his creators (supposedly). That said his creators, being deep down no different from the mortals they abhor (no matter how much they try to deny it), can use him for evil.

What do you mean by his creators deep down being no different from mortals? I don’t know how much clearer they could be about of how superior the ancients were. They literally were nigh-on immortal, had no wars, no dying to illness etc. It’s even to the point where, if we think about the long run, the rejoinings would save more lives due to how many lives the sundering has taken due to beings turning to mortals.



This goes into it a bit in regards to Mikko's post

[Kuroka]

In the end he was made to save the world, restore order and life, i dont think that he can be pure evil as he gets portrait sometimes... while our god lied to us...

[MikkoAkure]

Where does it say Zodiark asked his tempered followers to supply more aether? To my knowledge that isn’t said anywhere. Also Hydaelyn wasn’t summoned to protect the life of the world. Her sole purpose was created to keep Zodiark in check. They emphasize this with Venat where it isn’t even so much the sacrifices that bother her, but Zodiark’s power. In the Tales of the Shadows short story, they even say it wasn’t just the tempered people who were agreeing about restoring their loved ones, but untempered as well.

The new life created is the aether that Zodiark needed to “revive” the lost population. Also, if Hydaelyn wasn’t created to protect that life, why does she make Warriors of Light for non-ascian related threats like Ivalice’s Ultima? Also, if she was solely created to check Zodiark, it would’ve been infinitely easier for her to temper people to her will, which she has refused to do, but Zodiark has done.

Of course untempered people would want to see their loved ones again. The whole point of Venat’s rebellion was “but at what cost?”.

Also, I’m not sure what part about a god being summoned by your leaders who then tempers them to its will and converts 3/4 of your population into aether isn’t scary. This is just conjecture in my part, but the fact that Hydaelyn is so pro-free will tells me that the tempering was a part of Venat’s decision as well.

[RyuDragnier]

Meanwhile Venat herself admits that her faction are in the minority and that her own people will dislike the outcome - before forcibly ripping loved ones from each other, eliminating their memories and turning them into much weaker beings.

The Sundering also brought about immense inequality. For starters, aether is more prominent in some regions compared to others which means that some nations are given an advantage over others. Furthermore, some races - such as Pureblood Garleans - are unable to manipulate aether altogether bar a few exceptions. We know from side quests in Amaurot's recreation that those with lesser ability to use creation magic were aided by the Ancients themselves. That in itself is a very different approach to how Pureblood Garleans were forced out of fertile lands and into a bleak wasteland, only surviving due to the presence of ceruleum beneath the icy ground.

I wonder if the idea behind "chaining" Zodiark was more from a logical perspective that if there's another being that powerful, that they would resort to debate like the people of Amaurot were used to? Or perhaps the logical thoughts that there was just too much Umbral energy created by Zodiark and the planet needed a similar being of Astral energy to balance it out.

The thing is , Lahabrea also calls her a parasite. The question being how do we know she hasn’t been taking aether? She’s been awfully quiet and she is quite literally plugged into the aetherial sea. I don’t think we can really even make a notion on Hydaelyn herself because she too is an anomaly like Venat. Is she acting on her own will because her heart left her? She’s also on auto pilot as far as we know constantly ringing out her message. There’s a lot of suspicious things tied to it.

If she was feeding off of Aether, then you'd think she'd not be giving out her power to others, especially a singular being like the WoL. And then why have the Brood come onto the planet but not suck on their Aether in that case? There is too much evidence that put serious doubt on her being a parasite when it comes to devouring the aether.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The new life created is the aether that Zodiark needed to “revive” the lost population. Also, if Hydaelyn wasn’t created to protect that life, why does she make Warriors of Light for non-ascian related threats like Ivalice’s Ultima? Also, if she was solely created to check Zodiark, it would’ve been infinitely easier for her to temper people to her will, which she has refused to do, but Zodiark has done.

Of course untempered people would want to see their loved ones again. The whole point of Venat’s rebellion was “but at what cost?”.

Also, I’m not sure what part about a god being summoned by your leaders who then tempers them to its will and converts 3/4 of your population into aether isn’t scary. This is just conjecture in my part, but the fact that Hydaelyn is so pro-free will tells me that the tempering was a part of Venat’s decision as well.

They were converted to save the planet. If it wasn’t for that there wouldn’t be anyone living in the first place lol. Yes the new life is what they were going to use to bring back their loved ones but they never say Zodiark asked for that which is what you stated.Again, we don’t know how Hydaelyn acts without her heart. Whether that affects her will or not that’s the thing. I’m not saying Hydaelyn herself is antagonistic, but her heart, Venat, has many suspicious circumstances surrounding her. We don’t know if she has tempered though is also the thing. Minfilia certainly seemed to be so, with her specifically saying she felt the need to melt into Hydaelyn herself.

[Anvaire]

Looking at it objectively from what little we have in the game, those who have openly admitted to being tempered by Zodiark have caused the deaths of billions, and the destruction of seven and a half worlds over the period of tens of thousands of years since the Sundering, which most would consider an evil act.

Granted, what is considered good and evil is always going to change depending on your point of view. The ascians say that our lives don't matter compared to what life was like before, so our deaths are meaningless to them. The ascians (or at least the unsundered) believe that Zodiark will bring their old lives back if he is made whole again and all the new life can be sacrificed to bring back everyone who was sacrificed before. But I'm pretty sure that's a lie that they only believe because they're tempered.

Zodiark is a primal, and most examples of primals up to now have been focused on maintaining a supply of aether to continue their existence. Zodiark has asked his tempered followers to keep supplying more aether and then he'll totally return the past sacrifices but will he? Granted, Lakshmi wasn't nearly as powerful as Zodiark, but the person she brought back to life was an empty shell. And who is to say he would even give up all that aether and revive all of the lost civilization? The only other examples of primals who reject pure power are Hydaelyn and Ramuh. Hydaelyn was summoned with the specific programming to "protect the life of the world". So she spends her aether to make warriors of light to put down calamities, summonings, etc. via indirect influence rather than arising to smash them herself. She is rather weak despite sitting in the middle of the aetherial sea and it seems like she knows if she draws too much, it would be detrimental to the world. Similarly is Ramuh, who was summoned specifically as "a wise man who will protect the wood". Ramuh, through his programming knows that his own existence is detrimental to the forest and asks to be put down. I'm not sure if Zodiark will be the same, especially since now his "heart" has been destroyed.

It will remain to be seen when Endwalker comes out, but I'm still not sure why Zodiark gets such a following while Hydaelyn is often maligned on these forums. I don't think this game is as deep as some people think it is.

I do think there is an argument to be said around what tempering actually does. It seems that it causes the tempered aetherical polarity to be altered towards the primal and that it makes them devoted to the primal. The unsundered were already devoted to him though, Elidibus being the core of Zodiark and a primal made to find common ground between the two camps of people muddies whether or not he could be tempered at all.

But mroe than that i am reminded of Emet selchs words in the Quitana Revel.. "They are Primals after a fashion" I think there is a clear different between Zodiark and Hydealyn and primals and i think its probably to do with how they were summoned and the methodology of their crafting. The primals that are created and we fight were proven to drain the aether from the land as if they were incomplete, or the summoning was broken. I wonder if it is the lack of a "core" that causes this. Why would the ancients create a being to save them temporarily if that being would ultimately result in the destruction of their world? I think they didnt and instead, the creation magic they used was far removed from the summoning magic used to draw primals into being. I think this is further supported by the notion that primal summoning was spread by the ascians with the direct attempt to cause a calamity.

[Anvaire]

The new life created is the aether that Zodiark needed to “revive” the lost population. Also, if Hydaelyn wasn’t created to protect that life, why does she make Warriors of Light for non-ascian related threats like Ivalice’s Ultima? Also, if she was solely created to check Zodiark, it would’ve been infinitely easier for her to temper people to her will, which she has refused to do, but Zodiark has done.

Of course untempered people would want to see their loved ones again. The whole point of Venat’s rebellion was “but at what cost?”.

Also, I’m not sure what part about a god being summoned by your leaders who then tempers them to its will and converts 3/4 of your population into aether isn’t scary. This is just conjecture in my part, but the fact that Hydaelyn is so pro-free will tells me that the tempering was a part of Venat’s decision as well.

I actually think she does temper people. If you look at the cutscene where the warriors of darkness meet with the Minfilia. Ardbert attemtps to cut her down, she stops him with a touch and a blue glow. Every primal tempering we have seen has generally been with a blue glow. After this touch Ardbert turns from enraged to placid, he is suddenly motionless for a moment as if confused.

It is easy to miss because Minfilia starts talking, but it certainly on a second look seems very out of character for Ardbert. So much so that i truly think he was tempered at this point. Essentially i think Hydealyn uses WOL to achive a goal and then casts them aside. Thats assuming she actually creates them, rather then just wakes them up and then claims to have "blessed" them.

[MikkoAkure]

I actually think she does temper people. If you look at the cutscene where the warriors of darkness meet with the Minfilia. Ardbert attemtps to cut her down, she stops him with a touch and a blue glow. Every primal tempering we have seen has generally been with a blue glow. After this touch Ardbert turns from enraged to placid, he is suddenly motionless for a moment as if confused.

It is easy to miss because Minfilia starts talking, but it certainly on a second look seems very out of character for Ardbert. So much so that i truly think he was tempered at this point. Essentially i think Hydealyn uses WOL to achive a goal and then casts them aside. Thats assuming she actually creates them, rather then just wakes them up and then claims to have "blessed" them.

I was under the impression that Minfilia just paralyzed him so that he could hear her out. He changed his attitude because she said "yeah Hydaelyn understands where you're coming from and she hears you and I'm going to help you" when the whole time, he thought Hydaelyn abandoned his world.

Another thing is that we already have proof in ARR that we ourselves are not tempered. Ifrit himself says something along the lines that he "cannot smell the taint of another" on us when attempting to temper us after one of his own tempered suggests that we're tempered by someone else. If we were indeed tempered by a being more powerful than he, you would think he would be able to notice.

Anyways. In the end I don't think people are going to stop arguing over whether Zodiark and Hydaelyn are evil, even after Endwalker. Ultimately, they are just complex programs following the rules by which they were designed for. Regardless of what you the player thinks though, our character's role in the game is to protect the world and in that perspective, Zodiark is the barrier to that goal. His supporters (and some users in this forum) do not feel that the life on our planet is equal and we're just resources to be used to make everything go back to the way it was before. If our character agreed and helped, then the game would be over. I think a lot of good vs evil media is poorly written and that has us conditioned to think that anything that has a good writing is "grey". A well-written villain has a reason for doing the things they are doing, but I don't necessarily think that makes their reasons OK.

[Theodric]

Insofar as Tempering is concerned, a distinction has also been raised in regards to the severity of it. There's different degrees of Tempering - some of which can be cured and some which cannot. The latter generally being attributed to beings who have been altered physically - such as Sophia's followers. We also know that Unsundered lifeforms such as Tiamat maintain a high degree of free will even as a Tempered being, which suggests that the Convocation were very much acting within their own capacity for choices as well.

We can't say for certain either way just yet, but given that Minfilia's appearance was altered - albeit subtly - when she became the voice of Hydaelyn and she also makes it a point to compare herself to the Ascians I think the idea theory that Hydaelyn somehow avoids all the features that come with Primals is strange.

To say nothing of the fact that the blueprints for summoning Zodiark were not likely to be common knowledge, thus it raises the question as to how Venat came to piece together the ritual to bring forth Hydaelyn.

[RyuDragnier]

To say nothing of the fact that the blueprints for summoning Zodiark were not likely to be common knowledge, thus it raises the question as to how Venat came to piece together the ritual to bring forth Hydaelyn.

That's a good point to bring forward. And I think I know the answer of how. We know of a certain somebody who worked in the Bureau of the Architects who had full access to the blueprints and possibly knowledge of how they were made, and may be the source of how they figured out how to make Hydaelyn...Hythlodaeus.