Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[Alleo]

So what about the genocide caused by the sundering and the lives that are lost due to the unnatural nature of the mortal souls? No one seems to be addressing that in that the rejoinings would save more lives in the long run than the sundered would be claiming.

We dont know that. Emet hints at least that the people survived it and we have no idea if they survived with or without their memories intact. It could be that they are simply copies of themselves with less strenght. After all the sundered ascians can retain their memories which means that they have to be somewhere stored. Maybe they lost it all and were like newborns, maybe thought just x amount of the same people with the same memories existed on the shards. After all someone had to remember that time, since we have the cave paintings.

We should also not forget that death still existed even before the whole final days. And at least in the german short story about Azem the people in danger of the volcano are said to be mortals. So who knows maybe not every Ancient was born with a huge life span. Maybe they too had different races with different life spans.

I also doubt that the rejoining would save more lifes because the Ascians plans was not that the survivors of the rejoinings (which would have nearly complete souls at that point) would survive...the only ones alive after the rejoining would be the Ascians and the x amount of Amaurotines that sacrificed themselves. IF they are able to be saved, something that the Ascians cant even be sure about because if Zodiark needed the aether to act then why would these souls still be intact? Honestly for me it sounds more that its the hope they cling to only to have a world at the end, where the source is mostly destroyed thanks to their calamities with only the Ascians as the only ones alive because they find out that nothing can be brought back. (And we should not forget that if Graha and the future Iron works did not change the past, the Ascians would have created a world that even 200 years later was on the brink of dieing...they might have messed it up completely on that)

All of this too without the knowledge if maybe Zodiark truly was just a short term solution and the sound would have been back. At least Venats group believed that he would not be the end solution.

You can refuse to agree all you want. It’s something even the devs have agreed on, that the sundering and its inhabitants are abnormal. They’re fractured beings with degraded souls. Nothing more.

The only question I remember about this that the devs answered was the one posted a few pages back. And there they did not say that the inhabitants are abnormal. They simply stated that the situation being bad would be a matter of perspective and that the worlds are unstable. The worlds being unstable does not mean that the devs believe that the inhabitants are abnormal and deserve to be eliminated. The talk about the perspective is simple too: From the view of the people living now it would be bad because they would brutally die. For the Asicans it would be good because "their god" would be back.

Just a curious question: Would you want them to go the way that we watch billions of lives including us and NPCs we know to be killed? Even at a point were we would not be fractured beings with degraded souls anymore because after the rejoining we would be nearly complete again. Yet we would still be sacrified.

[Kuroka]

It’s something even the devs have agreed on, that the sundering and its inhabitants are abnormal. They’re fractured beings with degraded souls. Nothing more.

Ive been thinking about this a lot... So Omega and Midgardsormr were way stronger then any mortal bc they had full "souls", because they werent only x/14 fragments. So we can assume IF there are more Alien creatures we'd be pretty fucked if they one day visit us i guess huh? I really wonder if at one future expension this will come into play...

[KizuyaKatogami]

.

Just a curious question: Would you want them to go the way that we watch billions of lives including us and NPCs we know to be killed? Even at a point were we would not be fractured beings with degraded souls anymore because after the rejoining we would be nearly complete again. Yet we would still be sacrified.

If you’re asking me, then sure. I don’t care for 99% of the characters in the game lol. Now if i was in the perspective of where i was actually a character in the game then obviously not, that’s why it’s a matter of perspective. But seeing that it’s just a video game yeah i would rather they complete the rejoinings. Yes ancients died before, but we’re told they were nigh-on immortal, and we have time stamps that seem to place them well over thousands of years old. We also know they were immune to illness and there didn’t seem to be any wars back then. So it was a much safer environment overall. Whereas after the sundering, the sundered beings can die to the things above and age wise for certain races it’s much much lower, hence that the rejoinings would save more lives in the long run.

[KizuyaKatogami]

who are the ancients to decide what is lesser they are not gods they are children playing with powers that they do not understand their rampant abuse of their creation powers is pretty apparent if anything the hubris of the ancients is on full display everytime hades opens his mouth immortals are always shown as truly lesser beings they lack compassion and the ability to truly feel empathy because they never had to endure what the "lesser beings" had to endure even emet's grand experiment was bound to fail because even as Solus zos Galvus he was never in any real danger he was a immortal being playing at being mortal and failing every step of the way

Where are you getting that they lack compassion and the ability to truly feel empathy? They literally display all of these traits in the short stories and even the main game lmao.

[_Koneko_]

the problem with using short stories is that often the character they are in the short story and what we see in the msq have nothing in common

[Alleo]

If you’re asking me, then sure. I don’t care for 99% of the characters in the game lol. Now if i was in the perspective of where i was actually a character in the game then obviously not, that’s why it’s a matter of perspective. But seeing that it’s just a video game yeah i would rather they complete the rejoinings. Yes ancients died before, but we’re told they were nigh-on immortal, and we have time stamps that seem to place them well over thousands of years old. We also know they were immune to illness and there didn’t seem to be any wars back then. So it was a much safer environment overall. Whereas after the sundering, the sundered beings can die to the things above and age wise for certain races it’s much much lower, hence that the rejoinings would save more lives in the long run.

I guess at least I know now what you mean with perspective. For me perspective while discussion lore does not mean that you watch it outside from a kinda detachted way but that people try to see it through the eyes of the people they choose to see it from. Try to feel their reasons and things like that. Not in the sense of course that this is all real but still with the intention on feeling how someone in that situation would feel. So no matter how sad it was what the Ancients had to go through, I who see it through the eyes of a WoL that loves the people that live there right now, cant accept that fate. Especially for something that might not even lead somewhere. Which makes it hard to discuss it with someone that basically does not really care at all in that way. (And I dont mean that its bad, I just mean that we are bascially on different lanes of discussing something)

Well we also have a lot of information of the Ancient world through Emets eyes. At the same time a position existed that was soley there to travel across the world solving or at least listening to the problems of the people. We have at least one soul that was so miserable and full of anger that he was a danger while being a phoenix and we had a whole dungeon where experiments ran amok and seemingly killed a few people. Then we had the scene where other than Azem everyone else would not go to that island to solve the volcano problem. Who knows if all was truly so peaceful?

Also this were parts of the description of the underworld in one short story:

As water flows to the sea and rises to the sky before raining upon the land once more, the Underworld was a fundamental part of the circle of life. And for this reason, it was regarded at once with familiarity and reverence by men, who, despite their godlike powers, could not claim dominion over it.

This is what Emet saw constantly:

Here and there, lives that had served their purpose drifted upon the current before suddenly plunging down unto the Underworld.

It does sound that even if they might have had a long life, people still died. They even called it as part of the circle of life. People might die easier now but how much of that is because of the Ascians? How many wars and other conflicts would have never existed without them?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Ive been thinking about this a lot... So Omega and Midgardsormr were way stronger then any mortal bc they had full "souls", because they werent only x/14 fragments. So we can assume IF there are more Alien creatures we'd be pretty fucked if they one day visit us i guess huh? I really wonder if at one future expension this will come into play...

Yep, iirc Ultima is also implied to have been one that came here and delivered auracite. But yeah it’s also my speculation for the sound as well, but that’s pure speculation and i won’t put that here. But yeah other aliens from outside the shards would be unsundered so they’d still be complete souls.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

People still died absolutely. But their long lifetime and immune to illnesses put them far above anything else in terms of lifespans. As for the volcano problem, i don’t see it really as a negative thing. Why waste everyone else’s time when you have Azem, who specifically specializes in that field of work, to do it. We’re shown the field of works are taken very seriously in that regard.Iirc they had already addressed for people to evacuate anyways, the threat was the actual volcano. As for the perspective thing, i can 100% see both sides. I can understand the sundered not wanting to die and fighting for what they believe. Even if i’m not attached to many of them i can still see that. I still agree though, more with the ascians point of view. It’s a sad truth but we have to remember in the fantasy world of 14, the sundered/sundering are not normal. It might be hard to grasp that because in other games we’re used to mortals being the norm and the ancient god-like people being the abnormal but in this case it’s the opposite. Were they a perfect society? I don’t think such a thing exists tbh. But were they better than the sundered world/people? Absolutely imo. The logistics can be argued all day, at the end of the day people will have their differing opinions and attachments to the characters they like. My only thing is that the arguments are met with facts and not just headcanon(not saying you ofc just saying overall). Also at some point, we have to ask. At what point will the sundering be any betetr than the rejoinings? All the lives lost to age and illness etc etc. It's an infinite cycle of death that was at least slowed down back in the ancient, unsundered world due to how strong their souls were. More lives are being lost in the sundering.

[Cilia]

Just a few things to say before getting back to it:

1. If we want to operate under the dictate of there being no such thing as good or evil, that has to apply across the board, in every context, no exceptions.

2. "Everything is a matter of perspective." That may be so but something to keep in mind is that "Everyone thinks they're the hero of their own story." By this I mean nobody considers themselves to be in the wrong; even if they break their own moral code, they will come up with some justification or excuse as to why that transgression was acceptable. What makes someone a genuine hero is their impact on the lives of others; if someone makes decisions without considering those, can you really call them a hero? (See: Handsome Jack, main antagonist of Borderlands 2, who despite proclaiming himself to be a hero in no way acts the part from anyone's perspective but his own.)

3. If everything is a matter of perspective, there is no point in discussing these sorts of things since people have incompatible viewpoints on topics. Irreconcilable differences exist; that's not a bad thing but telling people why their viewpoint is wrong is unproductive. (inb4 "But you've said something to that effect!" Yes, and it was wrong of me to do so. We all make mistakes; I own up to mine.)

Now.

A potential issue is that most of the questions I've seen going "Is Zodiark good or evil" are actually phrasing the question incorrectly. I assume this is because the posters don't actually realize they're not asking the question they actually intend to ask.

A more proper formulation would be "Is Zodiark evil, or not-evil". "Not-evil" does not necessarily mean "good". "Good" and "evil" require actions and intent, and it would convince me if someone were to argue that Zodiark hasn't had a chance to display either, and thus his morality should be "unknown". In fact, that's my current stance, along with the added opinion that it doesn't actually matter, because we don't have enough information on what Zodiark actually did (we know the basic outline and the consequences, but nothing else).

Because in all the discussions, I've never seen anyone argue that Zodiark is actually unadulterated good. It's always "flawed and used as a tool" at best, rather than "yes, Zodiark did the right thing, and is continuing to do the right thing". So already the question "Is Zodiark good or evil" has dismissed the "good" part. And "it's complicated" avoids the question while also being a more accurate and useful answer, which means the question is incorrect.

I think a more succinct way to put it would be "Is Zodiark evil or not?" to which the answer would be... yes, "We don't know." Everything Zodiark is known to have done or intended to do was at the behest of the Convocation; his own will is unknown, assuming he even has one.

Sticking to the above though, whether or not Zodiark is good or evil depends on whether or not you personally agree with or benefit from his actions, which... again, remain unknown due to everything he's ever done having been at the behest of the Convocation. Even what he did at the behest of the Convocation is good or evil depending on whether or not you personally agree with or benefited from his actions. (Rewriting the laws of the star to stop the Sound and prevent its destruction? Good. Reconditioning the star to support life? Good. [Planning to] devour new lives to bring back old ones? Well, that's really questionable...)

[KizuyaKatogami]

Just an overall thing that i feel should be pointed out about this topic is that, the devs have stated that there is not good, there is no bad in the Amano art, depicting Hydaelyn and Zodiark. We can then tie something like this into what Yoshi P said in i believeeee 5.2? or 5.3 i honestly can’t remember, where he stated the primals themselves aren’t that important or their story won’t be explored as much, but the summoners and hearts are what’s more important. Unfortunately, there’s still a lot of mystery around the hearts. Venat absolutely, Elidibus we at least have some insight on but even then the actual functions and going-ons of it are unknown. In the end though i think it’s going to fall on whether we depict the hearts as good or evil and well, that’s something we pretty much have to figure out in 6.0. They do kind of hint a bit however that the primals seem to take after their hearts. Elidibus’ short story talking about how “caring and kind he was” and wanting to bring about salvation thus ending in Zodiark being a primal to bring about salvation(and even showing where it came from in his trial). In Hydaelyns case since Venat is such a mystery the only thing we have to go off of is Hydaelyn and Venat sharing the same VA(in jp at least, dunno about the others). But it will be interesting to see how it ties into it at the end.