Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[KizuyaKatogami]

I've finished the storyline through the current patch, yes. I also realize that the viewpoints of both Elidibus and Emet Selk are not particularly reliable, especially in light of the fact that Zodiark has been without a heart, and it unclear whether Elidibus left before or after the Sundering.

To HiraishinNoJutsu's point: Sacrificing "newly minted lives" after the Final Days are over is an extremely dubious thing to do for beings who are as Moral and Righteous and Upstanding as the Ancients appear to think themselves. Then again, Star Trek has come across plenty of gods and godlings with the same deficient moral compass, so why not?

"We didn't know what the outcome would be, but when it was finished we had no use for the lives created by Zodiark in the process of our Salvation, so we were going to try turning them in for the deposit." is a pathetic, but typical, excuse for godlings.

It’s not unclear. It’s stated he left before the sundering. He left to calm the masses. This is stated as well.As for the new lives, we dont know the circumstances of them that dictated why the Ancients chose to sacrifice them.It's one of the many unknowns currently in the story so we can't make judgements on it until it's confirmed.

[EaraGrace]

So what about the genocide caused by the sundering and the lives that are lost due to the unnatural nature of the mortal souls? No one seems to be addressing that in that the rejoinings would save more lives in the long run than the sundered would be claiming.

“Unnatural” is so incredibly loaded, I will never agree with such a description of human life.

And what right do the Ancients have to decide what lives are worth living? That’s not a decision for anyone to make for anyone else. Not to mention Emets own words on the topic, where he doesn’t even recognize the humanity and personhood of the sundered. I’m supposed to believe they’re doing that out of the kindness of their own hearts?

Hell, even by their own definition of personhood they were more than happy to sacrifice untold innocent people to bring back their friends. Yet these are the ones to be trusted to with the power of gods?

Well Ryne & WoL are no different to Mitron, we're also forcing Gaia to be the Gaia we know & the entire Eden plot is Ryne forcing herself on Gaia who wants nothing to do with her for like 70% of Eden story. Mitron is more a sad soul who just wanted his lover back. Also he was & wasn't taking her memories his goal was remove memories of us & give her back her original memories, basically we liked Amnesiac Gaia & wanted to keep her instead of given her memories back.

I'd say Mitron wasn't perfect but no one was perfect in how either side dealt with Gaia in Eden.

He tried to DESTROY her sense of self to allow her other memories dominance. He didn’t offer her choice like the WoL or Ryne did. At no point in the story did we ever dissuade her from making her own decisions. Mitron did. There’s no both sidesing it. He forcibly merged with her, had her attempt to destroy her memories of Ryne, and then fought to death to make sure he could have her. Gaia’s not the Ascian her soul was. She’s her own person with thoughts, feelings and ideas. No one but Mitron denied her that.

She LITERALLY cheers you on as you fight to free her!

GAIA: Now's your chance!
RYNE: Gaia's still in there, fighting to free herself from Loghrif's will!
GAIAPRIME: Even now, you would defy us!?
We will remove every last vestige of your meaningless mortal existence!

The thing is 90% of this isn’t proven. We don’t know if they could go back to that time or not, or if the rejoinings would work. There’s nothing really to lead us to believe it wouldn’t work that is. They empathize just how superior the unsundered/ancients are to the sundered multiple times and in various ways.

And the game also takes effort to show that the sundered have and will surpass the unsundered in various ways, because like all living beings the sundered and unsundered are flawed and virtuous in their own ways.

GAIAPRIME: That fragmented souls should triumph over their fears while we succumbed to ours, thereby setting our star upon a course of ruin...
That inferior beings such as you should succeed while we failed! It defies all logic!

RYNE: Compared to yours, our lives may seem insignificant.
Nevertheless, we live them to the fullest! And though it may take us a thousand years, we have the potential to build a world every bit as wonderful as yours!
But you won't even allow us a chance? To live our own lives and forge our own future?

[KizuyaKatogami]

“Unnatural” is so incredibly loaded, I will never agree with such a description of human life.

And what right do the Ancients have to decide what lives are worth living? That’s not a decision for anyone to make for anyone else. Not to mention Emets own words on the topic, where he doesn’t even recognize the humanity and personhood of the sundered. I’m supposed to believe they’re doing that out of the kindness of their own hearts?

Hell, even by their own definition of personhood they were more than happy to sacrifice untold innocent people to bring back their friends. Yet these are the ones to be trusted to with the power of gods?




He tried to DESTROY her sense of self to allow her other memories dominance. He didn’t offer her choice like the WoL or Ryne did. At no point in the story did we ever dissuade her from making her own decisions. Mitron did. There’s no both sidesing it. He forcibly merged with her, had her attempt to destroy her memories of Ryne, and then fought to death to make sure he could have her. Gaia’s not the Ascian her soul was. She’s her own person with thoughts, feelings and ideas. No one but Mitron denied her that.

She LITERALLY cheers you on as you fight to free her!





And the game also takes effort to show that the sundered have and will surpass the unsundered in various ways, because like living beings we are flawed and virtuous in our own ways.

You can refuse to agree all you want. It’s something even the devs have agreed on, that the sundering and its inhabitants are abnormal. They’re fractured beings with degraded souls. Nothing more.

[EaraGrace]

You can refuse to agree all you want. It’s something even the devs have agreed on, that the sundering and its inhabitants are abnormal. They’re fractured beings with degraded souls. Nothing more.

That’s you taking the position of a character the devs have written. Nowhere have they said that that is objectively true and have repeatedly written characters to argue against that point. Stop trying to dismiss this as a settled matter, it’s not.

And by your definition the whole world of Hydaelyn post-Zodiark is unnatural, as it was the Ancients rewrote the natural laws to keep their society alive. Thus it is “unnatural” as well.

[Theodric]

“Unnatural” is so incredibly loaded, I will never agree with such a description of human life.

Whether you agree with it or not the discussion is in regards to Emet-Selch's views on the Sundered.

Hell, even by their own definition of personhood they were more than happy to sacrifice untold innocent people to bring back their friends.

Alisae speculates during the MSQ's that she would probably seek to do the same thing were she in Emet-Selch's position.

He tried to DESTROY her sense of self to allow her other memories dominance. He didn’t offer her choice like the WoL or Ryne did.

As was pointed out in a prior post...

Gaia was irrelevant to Mitron's goals. His concern was Lohgrif, who he had made a promise to reunite with and she had accepted. Gaia is not Lohgrif, thus an obstacle he sought to overcome. You're correct in that he didn't ask her permission or try to reason with her. Yet the same can be said of the countless lives that the Scions and Warrior of Darkness have ended for mere differences in opinion/political alignment.

Ultimately, it was framed as a tragic love story. Gaia survived, Mitron and Lohgrif did not.

And the game also takes effort to show that the sundered have and will surpass the unsundered in various ways, because like all living beings the sundered and unsundered are flawed and virtuous in their own ways.

None of the victories against the Unsundered are without convenient tools to gain an edge. Against Lahabrea, not only had he been weakened by body hopping but Hydaelyn expended energy to protect against Ultima.

Against Emet-Selch, the battle was framed as exceptionally hard fought. Even the usual trick of white auracite did not work and G'raha summoned combatants to aid in the fight. In addition, Ardbert had to merge with the Warrior of Darkness to provide yet another edge.

As for Elidibus, it was once again a hard fought victory and the power of the Crystal Tower was expended in order to effectively seal him away.

I believe this is a good opportunity to remind you of this post on a previous page, as it deals with the subject of the Unsundered and how they may very well still be around in some form:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5566422

That’s you taking the position of a character the devs have written. Nowhere have they said that that is objectively true and have repeatedly written characters to argue against that point. Stop trying to dismiss this as a settled matter, it’s not.

The development team have stated repeatedly in a number of interviews that it is a matter of perspective. Individual characters argue in favour of what benefits their respective causes but that...should be a given.

I personally think that it is indeed a settled matter in the context of the game's story, which many of us are here to discuss rather than matters of morality.

Speaking of the game's story, here's a snippet of the journal entry for the battle against Emet-Selch:

You wage a titanic battle not only against Hades, but the hopes and dreams of Ascian-kind, of which he is the keeper. In the end, however, your own unwavering conviction brings the ancient being low. You have done a great and terrible thing. Pen the conclusion to this momentous chapter of history, and make your return to the Ocular.

Source: https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/S...ingers#Journal

It is quite clearly framed as a good thing for the Scions and Warrior of Darkness but a bad thing for Emet-Selch and his people. Which...makes sense, given that each were heroes with opposing causes and a firm desire to do whatever it took to protect their loved ones.

[EaraGrace]

Whether you agree with it or not the discussion is in regards to Emet-Selch's views on the Sundered.

That isn’t the context that I was responding to, which was Kizuya Katogami arguing that point themselves. I was disagreeing with their argument and the idea that that is objectively proven.

Alisae speculates during the MSQ's that she would probably seek to do the same thing were she in Emet-Selch's position.

Would need to see the exact quote. I know Y’shtola said it was logical, before disagreeing and stating it would kill millions. For Alisae, if my memory is correct I believe her point was that it was understandable to want to bring back ones loved ones. She ultimately doesn’t agree however, and stands to fight for those with her. She notices the parallels, a point I never disagreed with and wouldn’t have a problem pointing out. What is important however is not whether it is understandable, but justified and right.

And I have to repeatedly point out, this is not the same as believing the sundered are better off dead and rejoined, nor that killing a sundered is not murder, which is what I was clearly responding too.

Yet the same can be said of the countless lives that the Scions and Warrior of Darkness have ended for mere differences in opinion/political alignment.

I struggle to find a single moment where we killed someone over purely a political disagreement or opinion. Nor did we strip anyone of their memories because they dared not allow their life to be supplanted.

None of the victories against the Unsundered are without convenient tools to gain an edge.

We’re not talking exclusively fights. The value of a living being is not determined with how good they kill. The point of my quote was to demonstrate a moment where the unsundered failed to overcome something the sundered did. The embodiment of their fears in this case.

And this

The development team have stated repeatedly in a number of interviews that it is a matter of perspective. Individual characters argue in favour of what benefits their respective causes but that...should be a given.

Contradicts this

I personally think that it is indeed a settled matter in the context of the game's story, which many of us are here to discuss rather than matters of morality.

Either it’s a matter of perspective as the devs describe it, or it is a settled matter that the sundered are malformed, unnatural creatures that Kizuya Katogami describes them as. My point is that I disagree with their description and their conclusions. And to deny that morality does play a role in this discussion is to deny how this thread is playing out. It’s dripping with moral disagreements.

[Theodric]

One last quick post before I go to sleep...

This is very much a case of multiple truths at play.

The Sundering did reduce those it struck into lesser lifeforms. They're weaker, lost their memory of what once was, are more prone to sickness and live shorter lives.

Emet-Selch views the Sundered as lesser beings as a result of those traits in a manner not dissimilar to how a modern day human views a colony of ants.

The Sundered view themselves as worthy of living, flawed as they may be.

All three of the above are applicable and true, which ties into the matter of the thread's premise. It's all a matter of perspective, not at all black or white and the characters involved are all dealing with circumstances that are very bleak and unfortunate.

Some of my favourite characters are Sundered beings - such as Hien, Magnai, Thancred, Varis and Regula. I'd assume many here arguing from Emet-Selch's point of view have Sundered characters amongst their favourites too.

[EaraGrace]

One last quick post before I go to sleep...

This is very much a case of multiple truths at play.

The Sundering did reduce those it struck into lesser lifeforms. They're weaker, lost their memory of what once was, are more prone to sickness and live shorter lives.

That’s where the disagreement lies I believe. I do not think that makes them any lesser, and certainly no less deserving of life.

I do not disagree over what the Sundering did, just what it means for the lives of those sundered.

[_Koneko_]

who are the ancients to decide what is lesser they are not gods they are children playing with powers that they do not understand their rampant abuse of their creation powers is pretty apparent if anything the hubris of the ancients is on full display everytime hades opens his mouth immortals are always shown as truly lesser beings they lack compassion and the ability to truly feel empathy because they never had to endure what the "lesser beings" had to endure even emet's grand experiment was bound to fail because even as Solus zos Galvus he was never in any real danger he was a immortal being playing at being mortal and failing every step of the way

[YianKutku]

A potential issue is that most of the questions I've seen going "Is Zodiark good or evil" are actually phrasing the question incorrectly. I assume this is because the posters don't actually realize they're not asking the question they actually intend to ask.

A more proper formulation would be "Is Zodiark evil, or not-evil". "Not-evil" does not necessarily mean "good". "Good" and "evil" require actions and intent, and it would convince me if someone were to argue that Zodiark hasn't had a chance to display either, and thus his morality should be "unknown". In fact, that's my current stance, along with the added opinion that it doesn't actually matter, because we don't have enough information on what Zodiark actually did (we know the basic outline and the consequences, but nothing else).

Because in all the discussions, I've never seen anyone argue that Zodiark is actually unadulterated good. It's always "flawed and used as a tool" at best, rather than "yes, Zodiark did the right thing, and is continuing to do the right thing". So already the question "Is Zodiark good or evil" has dismissed the "good" part. And "it's complicated" avoids the question while also being a more accurate and useful answer, which means the question is incorrect.