Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[MikkoAkure]

He doesn't really accept what she says though.
https://youtu.be/O81y_dJ1mWg?t=2997

The part where he accepts it was cut off by the clip you posted.
https://youtu.be/AyzX8eoiDA0?t=490

also in regards to ifrit, he actually claims we've been claimed by another.

Wrong.
https://imgur.com/a/04b8i8G

That bit of dialogue was actually changed from 1.0 to 2.0. In the original, he did smell influence by another, but that was removed in 2.0.

[Katie_Kitty]

The new life created is the aether that Zodiark needed to “revive” the lost population. Also, if Hydaelyn wasn’t created to protect that life, why does she make Warriors of Light for non-ascian related threats like Ivalice’s Ultima? Also, if she was solely created to check Zodiark, it would’ve been infinitely easier for her to temper people to her will, which she has refused to do, but Zodiark has done.

Of course untempered people would want to see their loved ones again. The whole point of Venat’s rebellion was “but at what cost?”.

Also, I’m not sure what part about a god being summoned by your leaders who then tempers them to its will and converts 3/4 of your population into aether isn’t scary. This is just conjecture in my part, but the fact that Hydaelyn is so pro-free will tells me that the tempering was a part of Venat’s decision as well.

yeaaaah I don't get the zodiark fanboys either.

I mean, let's be real for a moment. The ancients heard a scary sound and suddenly they couldn't even control their own power, and it led to their own downfall. Because they heard a scary sound. Remember that? I know the assumption is that it was a willful act by a malicious being, but we actually don't know that. It could be that the ancients, as "perfect" as they were, were incredibly unfit for the power they held and that they completely caused their own destruction even before zodiark became a thing. If the people themselves, so incapable of controlling their own emotions and the creation magicks that ran amok as a result, couldn't be trusted as they were then the sundering is not only logical but necessary.

[Theodric]

yeaaaah I don't get the zodiark fanboys either.

What's not to get? We're talking about fictional characters in a fictional setting. Some people will like a specific character, others will dislike them. Such is generally the case with...pretty much every fictional setting in existence.

Thankfully the writers recognise that and have stated as much themselves across multiple interviews and Q&A sessions, such as this one:



As with many plot elements, it's very much as matter of perspective and some of us are here to discuss the lore as it is rather than get caught up in head canon or appeals to emotion.

Are you actually trying to justify the sundering when the devs themselves labeled it as a horrendous thing lol.

Hopefully the image I linked above will help with that particular point, given that the source is commentary from the writers themselves. I get a lot of messages in-game about it and jokes that it should be made into a sticky around these parts!

[KizuyaKatogami]

The new life created is the aether that Zodiark needed to “revive” the lost population. Also, if Hydaelyn wasn’t created to protect that life, why does she make Warriors of Light for non-ascian related threats like Ivalice’s Ultima? Also, if she was solely created to check Zodiark, it would’ve been infinitely easier for her to temper people to her will, which she has refused to do, but Zodiark has done.

Of course untempered people would want to see their loved ones again. The whole point of Venat’s rebellion was “but at what cost?”.

Also, I’m not sure what part about a god being summoned by your leaders who then tempers them to its will and converts 3/4 of your population into aether isn’t scary. This is just conjecture in my part, but the fact that Hydaelyn is so pro-free will tells me that the tempering was a part of Venat’s decision as well.

They were converted to save the planet. If it wasn’t for that there wouldn’t be anyone living in the first place lol. Yes the new life is what they were going to use to bring back their loved ones but they never say Zodiark asked for that which is what you stated.Again, we don’t know how Hydaelyn acts without her heart. Whether that affects her will or not that’s the thing. I’m not saying Hydaelyn herself is antagonistic, but her heart, Venat, has many suspicious circumstances surrounding her. We don’t know if she has tempered though is also the thing. Minfilia certainly seemed to be so, with her specifically saying she felt the need to melt into Hydaelyn herself.

[Theodric]

Insofar as Tempering is concerned, a distinction has also been raised in regards to the severity of it. There's different degrees of Tempering - some of which can be cured and some which cannot. The latter generally being attributed to beings who have been altered physically - such as Sophia's followers. We also know that Unsundered lifeforms such as Tiamat maintain a high degree of free will even as a Tempered being, which suggests that the Convocation were very much acting within their own capacity for choices as well.

We can't say for certain either way just yet, but given that Minfilia's appearance was altered - albeit subtly - when she became the voice of Hydaelyn and she also makes it a point to compare herself to the Ascians I think the idea theory that Hydaelyn somehow avoids all the features that come with Primals is strange.

To say nothing of the fact that the blueprints for summoning Zodiark were not likely to be common knowledge, thus it raises the question as to how Venat came to piece together the ritual to bring forth Hydaelyn.

[RyuDragnier]

To say nothing of the fact that the blueprints for summoning Zodiark were not likely to be common knowledge, thus it raises the question as to how Venat came to piece together the ritual to bring forth Hydaelyn.

That's a good point to bring forward. And I think I know the answer of how. We know of a certain somebody who worked in the Bureau of the Architects who had full access to the blueprints and possibly knowledge of how they were made, and may be the source of how they figured out how to make Hydaelyn...Hythlodaeus.

[EaraGrace]

I actually think she does temper people. If you look at the cutscene where the warriors of darkness meet with the Minfilia. Ardbert attemtps to cut her down, she stops him with a touch and a blue glow. Every primal tempering we have seen has generally been with a blue glow. After this touch Ardbert turns from enraged to placid, he is suddenly motionless for a moment as if confused.

It is easy to miss because Minfilia starts talking, but it certainly on a second look seems very out of character for Ardbert. So much so that i truly think he was tempered at this point. Essentially i think Hydealyn uses WOL to achive a goal and then casts them aside. Thats assuming she actually creates them, rather then just wakes them up and then claims to have "blessed" them.

If a tempering did occur then that would’ve been Minfilia doing so, as she was by all means in control of her decisions.

I do not believe for a second he was tempered. Ardbert only relented after Minfilia explained that Hydaelyn knew of their plight. And even still, he only full acquiesced once his companions pointed out that they weren’t going to succeed at their original plan. The blue glow was there for longer than her talking and yet he was inches from cleaning her in two.

Not to mention none of this would make sense both thematically and in the story. A plot device like that would thoroughly undermine not just one but several characters arcs as well as a major part of the Shadowbringers story.

To say nothing of the fact that the blueprints for summoning Zodiark were not likely to be common knowledge, thus it raises the question as to how Venat came to piece together the ritual to bring forth Hydaelyn.

The “ritual” was earlier established in Akadaemia Anyder with the summoning of Phoenix, which was the original inspiration for a soul based summoning. Given the Ancients penchant for sharing information among themselves (the ones who summoned Zodiark told them much) and the respect and sway Venat clearly had, it isn’t at all surprising they knew. Hell, the Ancients probably never conceived there’d be conflict in their ranks, so why bother being secretive?

[Anvaire]

If a tempering did occur then that would’ve been Minfilia doing so, as she was by all means in control of her decisions.

We cant actually substantiate that Minfilia was fully in control of her actions as her being the "word of the mother" or that she was even Minfilia at all. Though she does appear to act and speak as though she is, the original time we met her she spoke like hydealyn. Given the substantial changes to her, through being merged with hydealyn or maybe acting as her host. But even if the tempering was done by Minfilia, it still wouldnt make it right. As for Ardbert calming down because she heard his pleas... i think the issue is that he was angry and outraged enough to attack her at sight. He didn't want to "suffer the farce" any longer and yet despite all that emotion he didnt speak when the bonds holding him in place were released? I cant say for certain that he was tempered, but at best its odd behaviour.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The part where he accepts it was cut off by the clip you posted.
https://youtu.be/AyzX8eoiDA0?t=490


Wrong.
https://imgur.com/a/04b8i8G

That bit of dialogue was actually changed from 1.0 to 2.0. In the original, he did smell influence by another, but that was removed in 2.0.

He does calm down after yes, but the point is what’s she saying. That they must serve her will in the same way that the Ascians serve Zodiark. In regards to Ifrit you’re right in that he doesn’t say it and it was changed. However, this is with reference to the MC before the blessing went full blast.The thing is not all tempering is the same, so it’s hard to speculate on it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The reason why they summoned her was because they valued that life and didn't think it should be sacrificed. Feelings at the time of summoning are imprinted on a primal so yes she would want to protect life on this planet. It explains why she also isn't taking aether from life on this planet. Instead she took it from the dragon flying by looking for a place to stay.

Right then. So their belief is that the world belongs to the new life. The question is why, which i’m hoping we get an answer to in 6.0.