Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[Anvaire]

With Endwalker approaching I have been thinking a lot about Hydealyn and Zodiark. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Hydealyn isnt as benevolant as she first appears. Which got me thinking about Zodiark and I realised that aside from what we have been told, weve seen no actual evidence that Zodiark is "Evil" if anything, what we have seen in 5.3 would suggest that he isnt.

1 - We know he was summoned to save the world from the final days by half the populous of Amaurot sacrificing themselves willingly to achieve it.
2- The unsundered ascians wanted to sacrifice the new life that grew on the star to bring the ones sacrificed back.
3 - Hydealyn was summoned to stop Zodiark and the impact casued the sundering.
4 - Zodiark was imprisoned on the moon.

We have never heard directly from Zodiark or seen evidence that he speaks to the Ascians, only that they carry on his will. Given the purity of Elidibus prior to becoming the core of Zodiark I cant help but think about how Titan's mentality was formed by the emotions of Ga Bu and so given the reasons behind Elidibus when summoning Zodiark, can we be so certain that he is a deity that is inherently evil? There is a puzze piece missing still, but im starting to think that Zodiark is not as evil as he seems. The amano art of Zodiark and Hydealyn only makes me think this more. Looking at this image it looks like Zodiark is in pain and Hydealyn is drawing energy from him.

Amano Art of Zodiark and Hydealyn

Looking at this image it looks like Zodiark is in pain and Hydealyn is drawing energy from him. It could also suggets that Hydealyn was summoned from Zodiark which would explain why Lahabrea refered to her as a parasite.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Snip

Personally i’ve always believed he isn’t evil. This never struck me as a game that would just go simple light is good, dark is bad, and it would appear i’m correct. There’s a lot of misinformation among the community regarding him,(their own headcanon mixed in, in that Hydaelyn must be good and he must be evil etc etc.) In my opinion however, i don’t think Hydaelyn herself may be antagonistic, however her heart i 100% think will be. Whether it’s her being influenced by some higher entity or what i don’t know. Regarding Zodiark, he did what he was told to do. He saved the planet, his entire creation being based around Salvation. That is a benevolent thing. Whereas Hydaelyn was created around keeping him in check and enervation, a not so benevolent thing as we see the eventual downfall of that via the Sundering. For Endwalker i really don’t think we’ll be fighting Zodiark. With them portraying the WoL as Elidibus(literally giving us his shadow) and then having us as a paladin almost symbolizing us protecting it, i think our goal will be to ask for his help and protect him from Fandaniel and Zenos. I’m really curious to see how this thread goes because people are typically very Anti-Zodiark, Pro-Hydaelyn lol.

Also, just something that i had found interesting.

This seems to line up with the colour themes of the expansion nicely.

[RyuDragnier]

I'm thinking that both are neutral figures that have what they think is best for the world in mind. Zodiark from what we know, took a hands-on approach and actively adjusted things for the betterment of the people living there while keeping what they wanted in mind, and if took after Elidibus, genuinely cared about the old life on the planet and wished to safeguard it. Hydaelyn, if she's anything like the impression that she's given off in the story, takes more of a hands-off approach, letting people be people, and only directly intervenes through her Blessing and her champion if the current life of those on the planet is in danger.

Neither is intrinsically wrong here, neither is evil. Both want what is best for the planet and its people, which is why I still find it odd that Hydaelyn cleaved Zodiark into 14 pieces. Both are from a civilization of debate, so I find it highly suspect that she would just do so from the start. We're missing a chunk of information here, and I have a sneaking suspicion the Sound and Azem play a major role in what we're missing.

[MikkoAkure]

Looking at it objectively from what little we have in the game, those who have openly admitted to being tempered by Zodiark have caused the deaths of billions, and the destruction of seven and a half worlds over the period of tens of thousands of years since the Sundering, which most would consider an evil act.

Granted, what is considered good and evil is always going to change depending on your point of view. The ascians say that our lives don't matter compared to what life was like before, so our deaths are meaningless to them. The ascians (or at least the unsundered) believe that Zodiark will bring their old lives back if he is made whole again and all the new life can be sacrificed to bring back everyone who was sacrificed before. But I'm pretty sure that's a lie that they only believe because they're tempered.

Zodiark is a primal, and most examples of primals up to now have been focused on maintaining a supply of aether to continue their existence. Zodiark has asked his tempered followers to keep supplying more aether and then he'll totally return the past sacrifices but will he? Granted, Lakshmi wasn't nearly as powerful as Zodiark, but the person she brought back to life was an empty shell. And who is to say he would even give up all that aether and revive all of the lost civilization? The only other examples of primals who reject pure power are Hydaelyn and Ramuh. Hydaelyn was summoned with the specific programming to "protect the life of the world". So she spends her aether to make warriors of light to put down calamities, summonings, etc. via indirect influence rather than arising to smash them herself. She is rather weak despite sitting in the middle of the aetherial sea and it seems like she knows if she draws too much, it would be detrimental to the world. Similarly is Ramuh, who was summoned specifically as "a wise man who will protect the wood". Ramuh, through his programming knows that his own existence is detrimental to the forest and asks to be put down. I'm not sure if Zodiark will be the same, especially since now his "heart" has been destroyed.

It will remain to be seen when Endwalker comes out, but I'm still not sure why Zodiark gets such a following while Hydaelyn is often maligned on these forums. I don't think this game is as deep as some people think it is.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Looking at it objectively from what little we have in the game, those who have openly admitted to being tempered by Zodiark have caused the deaths of billions, and the destruction of seven and a half worlds over the period of tens of thousands of years since the Sundering, which most would consider an evil act.

Granted, what is considered good and evil is always going to change depending on your point of view. The ascians say that our lives don't matter compared to what life was like before, so our deaths are meaningless to them. The ascians (or at least the unsundered) believe that Zodiark will bring their old lives back if he is made whole again and all the new life can be sacrificed to bring back everyone who was sacrificed before. But I'm pretty sure that's a lie that they only believe because they're tempered.

Zodiark is a primal, and most examples of primals up to now have been focused on maintaining a supply of aether to continue their existence. Zodiark has asked his tempered followers to keep supplying more aether and then he'll totally return the past sacrifices but will he? Granted, Lakshmi wasn't nearly as powerful as Zodiark, but the person she brought back to life was an empty shell. And who is to say he would even give up all that aether and revive all of the lost civilization? The only other examples of primals who reject pure power are Hydaelyn and Ramuh. Hydaelyn was summoned with the specific programming to "protect the life of the world". So she spends her aether to make warriors of light to put down calamities, summonings, etc. via indirect influence rather than arising to smash them herself. She is rather weak despite sitting in the middle of the aetherial sea and it seems like she knows if she draws too much, it would be detrimental to the world. Similarly is Ramuh, who was summoned specifically as "a wise man who will protect the wood". Ramuh, through his programming knows that his own existence is detrimental to the forest and asks to be put down. I'm not sure if Zodiark will be the same, especially since now his "heart" has been destroyed.

It will remain to be seen when Endwalker comes out, but I'm still not sure why Zodiark gets such a following while Hydaelyn is often maligned on these forums. I don't think this game is as deep as some people think it is.

Where does it say Zodiark asked his tempered followers to supply more aether? To my knowledge that isn’t said anywhere. Also Hydaelyn wasn’t summoned to protect the life of the world. Her sole purpose was created to keep Zodiark in check. They emphasize this with Venat where it isn’t even so much the sacrifices that bother her, but Zodiark’s power. In the Tales of the Shadows short story, they even say it wasn’t just the tempered people who were agreeing about restoring their loved ones, but untempered as well.

[KageTokage]

I don't feel like the Sundering is something that just happened, personally, and rather think it's something Venat and her followers may have specifically engineered Hydaelyn to be capable of with the intent that "weakening" the world and its people would prevent the Final Days from ever happening again as it's heavily implied to have been a product of the Ancients' own folly.

Emet-Selch and the other unsundered thus far seem like the only reason that plan didn't pan out in the end...which makes me further question how they managed to escape an event of such a scale.

[RyuDragnier]

Where does it say Zodiark asked his tempered followers to supply more aether? To my knowledge that isn’t said anywhere. Also Hydaelyn wasn’t summoned to protect the life of the world. Her sole purpose was created to keep Zodiark in check. They emphasize this with Venat where it isn’t even so much the sacrifices that bother her, but Zodiark’s power. In the Tales of the Shadows short story, they even say it wasn’t just the tempered people who were agreeing about restoring their loved ones, but untempered as well.

All we know about Venat sadly is the few scenes we have with her. We don't know enough about her to make a call based on her past self, but we know enough about Hydaelyn's actions since 2.0 to where we can make a call on how the primal Hydaelyn possibly feels about everything. If she only wanted to keep the seal intact on Zodiark, she'd have been absorbing Aether from other sources to keep the seal intact. But she hasn't taken any Aether from any of the shards, she seems to have been running out of power, as Lahabrea stated back in Praetorium way back in 2.0. Her sole purpose wasn't just to keep Zodiark in check, but it is indeed one of the purposes behind her summoning.

Emet-Selch and the other unsundered thus far seem like the only reason that plan didn't pan out in the end...which makes me further question how they managed to escape an event of such a scale.

Considering it only effected the planet since otherworldly visitors are common...I'd say they weren't on the planet when it happened.

[Cilia]

Considering what we know of them, neither Hydaelyn nor Zodiark are good or evil. They are in effect highly sophisticated machines created for specific purposes; those purposes both had good intentions, but led to some very bad things from certain perspectives. (Zodiark did save the planet, but then the Convocation decided to let him eat new life for the purpose of necromancy; Hydaelyn was created specifically to stop Zodiark, but ended up wrecking the whole planet.)

Zodiark himself is not evil, as he only responds to the wishes of his creators (supposedly). That said his creators, being deep down no different from the mortals they abhor (no matter how much they try to deny it), can use him for evil.

[Theodric]

It's ultimately a matter of perspective and the writers themselves have stated as much both in-game and outside of it in various interviews that have been posted here many times already over the years.

I don't believe that Zodiark or Hydaelyn are inherently 'good' or 'evil'. In actuality, the Primals themselves are simply running on commands and do what they are told to do. Things get a little more complicated when we consider that they were, at one point, piloted - but as we saw with Elidibus, he and the Convocation simply desired what they saw as best for their people and Zodiark's power did accomplish what it sought to do in regards to healing the Star.

Venat, however, is much more of a wildcard. For her, it ultimately comes down to intention. Was the Sundering an accident or a known result? If it's the former, then she's more morally grey whereas if it's the latter then the water gets much murkier.

I note that the 'billions' of lives supposedly destroyed by the Ascians are swift to be brought up but that came to be as a direct result of the aftermath of the Sundering itself as an effort to restore things to how they once were.

Meanwhile Venat herself admits that her faction are in the minority and that her own people will dislike the outcome - before forcibly ripping loved ones from each other, eliminating their memories and turning them into much weaker beings.

The Sundering also brought about immense inequality. For starters, aether is more prominent in some regions compared to others which means that some nations are given an advantage over others. Furthermore, some races - such as Pureblood Garleans - are unable to manipulate aether altogether bar a few exceptions. We know from side quests in Amaurot's recreation that those with lesser ability to use creation magic were aided by the Ancients themselves. That in itself is a very different approach to how Pureblood Garleans were forced out of fertile lands and into a bleak wasteland, only surviving due to the presence of ceruleum beneath the icy ground.

I don't believe that the Ancients were particularly arrogant or in need of being 'humbled' - that line of reasoning simply appears to be an attempt to try and frame the Sundering as a necessity and a good thing rather than the horrific and traumatic event it was in actuality.

Indeed, we already know that there are other beings in the setting who are immensely powerful as a result of not being Sundered such as Midgardsormr.

In short, it's not a black or white scenario at all at present - and I doubt that will change even as additional information comes to light as Yoshi-P specifically stated that a key theme of the expansion is going to revolve around such.

[KizuyaKatogami]

All we know about Venat sadly is the few scenes we have with her. We don't know enough about her to make a call based on her past self, but we know enough about Hydaelyn's actions since 2.0 to where we can make a call on how the primal Hydaelyn possibly feels about everything. If she only wanted to keep the seal intact on Zodiark, she'd have been absorbing Aether from other sources to keep the seal intact. But she hasn't taken any Aether from any of the shards, she seems to have been running out of power, as Lahabrea stated back in Praetorium way back in 2.0. Her sole purpose wasn't just to keep Zodiark in check, but it is indeed one of the purposes behind her summoning.


Considering it only effected the planet since otherworldly visitors are common...I'd say they weren't on the planet when it happened.

The thing is , Lahabrea also calls her a parasite. The question being how do we know she hasn’t been taking aether? She’s been awfully quiet and she is quite literally plugged into the aetherial sea. I don’t think we can really even make a notion on Hydaelyn herself because she too is an anomaly like Venat. Is she acting on her own will because her heart left her? She’s also on auto pilot as far as we know constantly ringing out her message. There’s a lot of suspicious things tied to it.