Dual purpse classes/jobs

[vax]

I think SE should make a trait that using berserk only on warrior gives a double attack effect. Also remove the attack power on rampage.

[kazaran]

I have no desire to tank as a Blm. I want a person who is a Paldin to excel at it tradtionally, and a war should be able to, but not be a deep DD. THat's the mages job. It seems it going to go tradtional in 2.0, which is good.

Sure I out tanked Paldins on FFXI as a Dancer. It just wasn't feeling right.

As a BLm I expect ot kick ass in damage above all others, but to be smacked down fast if I get hit.

[Enfarious]

I have no desire to tank as a Blm. I want a person who is a Paldin to excel at it tradtionally, and a war should be able to, but not be a deep DD. THat's the mages job. It seems it going to go tradtional in 2.0, which is good.

Sure I out tanked Paldins on FFXI as a Dancer. It just wasn't feeling right.

As a BLm I expect ot kick ass in damage above all others, but to be smacked down fast if I get hit.

dnc/rdm ftw ... anyway

Yeah but it doesn't happen this way yet, I think mostly cause the formulas in use atm are fucked. 100 def makes all of a .5% difference in dmg taken so even at 1500(anyone hit this high yet?) def your only taking 5% less than a person w/ 500 that's some shitty curve.

[Haibel]

I really don't have a problem with War tanking.

My problem is that gla/pld does not work as a tank. it started in Alpha with there being no real enmity factor
other then damage. Beta added healing in to the enmity table. By release enmity abilty started to somewhat work
as long as the whole party watched their own hate. Making battles long then they needed to be.

After enmity and battle reforms Gla became a viable tank however you still had the need of other classes holding back
a bit to not put hate. Which is some what ideal. there could have been some adjustments to Gla to make this not so critical.
after Jobs added war became able to get hate and hold it. which is where Pld should be but is not. War have enough dmg to
hold hate and enmity abilities on top of that.

I feel instead of nerfing war, they should have added even more enmity to abilities and increased pld/gla damage in a small
amount. adding double attack to a Gla trait for normal attacks and bringing sword dmg up closure to the bottom of the dmg
floor of the other classes would go a long way to fixing this. As it stands now, Gla/pld dmg ceiling doesn't pass other jobs floor by too much. Adjusting Enmity abilities ensures war is still a viable tank.

[Enfarious]

Haibel, I agree,I don't see anything wrong with jobs being able to fill more than one role in a party, it adds freedom. WAR being able to tank OR dd at any given time.

I do however see a problem if other jobs can't do the same, if one job can do 2 things it should not be the best at either of them, but instead have a balanced amount of each. If each role were given a point value with a modifier for specialization in it as a way of balancing you'd get something like:

Healing = 5 pts;
Nuking = 5 pts;
Tanking = 5 pts;
Melee = 5pts;
Enhancing = 3 pts;
Enfeebling = 3 pts;
+1 pt for every 5% above base;
-1 pt for every 5% below base;

No job should exceed 20 pts;
WHM = (healing + 5) + (enhancing + 2) + (nuking) == 20;
BLM = (Nuking + 10) + (enfeebling + 2) == 15;
WAR = (melee + 5) + (tanking + 10) == 25;
PLD = (melee -2) + (tanking +5) + (healing) == 18;
BRD = (enhancing + 7) + (melee(ranged) + 5) == 20;
DRG&MNK = (melee +7) == 12;

I think that's not a horrible scale, if nothing else it illustrates what I'm trying to say somewhat. DRG&MNK got shafted when the abilities changed, prior to that DRG(LNC) had some enfeebles & buffs for the party in the for of surges and what have you, give those effects back and it'd get some balance back, and a reason to want a drg in a melee heavy pt. MNK(PUG) I don't remember at all, but, Sap, Victimize and the like where again it could serve up a second role.

BLM got pushed so far into the nuking that it does nothing else now, and enfeebles are kinda useless so ...

WAR just got too much in the tanking dept.

PLD lost to much in the melee dept. to have also gained less in tanking than war, and it's healing isn't bad but it's not supreme either. End of the day give back a little melee, add some tanking in the form of enmity boosts, improved heals, and/or damage reduction which there is a fair amount of, but I'm thinking more a passive -DT%.

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Yeah I remember in beta and at launch hate control was a non-existent thing, it was more a matter of killing things before they ate the squishy people, even the enmity+ abilities only worked for ~1 second.
I also remember mages hitting 1 AoE spell on mobs/party and getting 2k SP for it while melees would randomly get nothing unless it was on a long drawn out fight and even then it was dodgy with the /random nature of SP gains. I was so happy when that went away.

[Gennosuke]

Haibel, I agree,I don't see anything wrong with jobs being able to fill more than one role in a party, it adds freedom. WAR being able to tank OR dd at any given time.

I do however see a problem if other jobs can't do the same, if one job can do 2 things it should not be the best at either of them, but instead have a balanced amount of each. If each role were given a point value with a modifier for specialization in it as a way of balancing you'd get something like:

Healing = 5 pts;
Nuking = 5 pts;
Tanking = 5 pts;
Melee = 5pts;
Enhancing = 3 pts;
Enfeebling = 3 pts;
+1 pt for every 5% above base;
-1 pt for every 5% below base;

No job should exceed 20 pts;
WHM = (healing + 5) + (enhancing + 2) + (nuking) == 20;
BLM = (Nuking + 10) + (enfeebling + 2) == 15;
WAR = (melee + 5) + (tanking + 10) == 25;
PLD = (melee -2) + (tanking +5) + (healing) == 18;
BRD = (enhancing + 7) + (melee(ranged) + 5) == 20;
DRG&MNK = (melee +7) == 12;

I think that's not a horrible scale, if nothing else it illustrates what I'm trying to say somewhat. DRG&MNK got shafted when the abilities changed, prior to that DRG(LNC) had some enfeebles & buffs for the party in the for of surges and what have you, give those effects back and it'd get some balance back, and a reason to want a drg in a melee heavy pt. MNK(PUG) I don't remember at all, but, Sap, Victimize and the like where again it could serve up a second role.

BLM got pushed so far into the nuking that it does nothing else now, and enfeebles are kinda useless so ...

WAR just got too much in the tanking dept.

PLD lost to much in the melee dept. to have also gained less in tanking than war, and it's healing isn't bad but it's not supreme either. End of the day give back a little melee, add some tanking in the form of enmity boosts, improved heals, and/or damage reduction which there is a fair amount of, but I'm thinking more a passive -DT%.

It is as you say. I feel the same way too. Unfortunately balance is all messed up amongst the jobs, and it's very evident how War has a great advantage in that regard.

If SE did work on some similar point system as in the example you gave, then perhaps we would have a more organised way of achieving a balanced system. At the moment, nothing adds up and War got away with it.
I'm not against having dual purposes in a job, i think it's just fine and can enhance gameplay, but as you said, spread that system evenly across all jobs to have balance. Balance in power, balance in diversity, balance in usability & demand, etc.

I don't think all jobs necessarily need to have a fixed second role as per se, but what they do need are clearly defined additional useful assets/traits to make them stand out in their own way and make each one of them more valuable. If it's a secondary role, so be it, if it's a more broad set of traits or abilities, that is fine too.

As an example, Drg could have dragon added to the job, that alone can set it apart. Monk could have more focus on evasion and counter attack abilities and more self enhancing abilities and hp (being a monk) for higher survivability and damage.
I suppose they can't go all out, bearing in mind how much they'll need keep as reserve for level cap raise abilities as well as new jobs to come, but a solid starting point is good.

Hopefully, we'll start seeing more of these changes with time.. I think they are far off from the optimal balance atm. Just need to make our voices heard on this matter. This is the backbone of the game and needs stressing.

[stanleyyoung]

you are right about the class to jobs system its unbalanced. yes the numbers behind each class/job is a big factor in the overall balanced of the battle system. but something that is just above that is the CLEAR identification of each class & thier corresponding jobs and the roles inwhich they play and how they achieve to do so. Once SE achieves that then the numbers can be put in to finalize everything, trying to fix the numbers now while some classes/jobs roles kinda sorta are similar and not unquie also the fact the some classes have jobs that arent nessecarly useless but kinda redundant in a way, since they basically do the same thing in the same mannor with little difference.

an example of this is lancer/dragoon. when soloing its better to use lancer due to the fact that you have many cross-class abilities at your disposal. even in parties its nice to have lnc (a decent dd) thats able to keep itself alive unlike dragoon which heavy realizes on heals from others, to add to that lancer can rasie ppl if need be while drg cant. which would you have in a party reguardless of what you are doing. even more so dragoon on the other hand is very realiant on whm & others or it has to keep away from taking any dmg possible since its only way of healing itself is second wind, mogspear( if you ahve that) & life surge.

to me i see it just a bit more vital to clearify the classes/jobs & armoury system. once everyone (classes/jobs) have a clear distinction from each other and all are unquie in thier own way. The numbers will fall in place because you cant have a pld which mostly likely will be a tank do alot of dps and have a dragoon that just a dd doing the same dps it doesn't add up, why have the dragoon when the pld does the same damage. the pld needs to only tank & the dragoon focus on dd. classes/jobs need to be identified and the roles they play, also this will fix the problem we have know were some jobs appear to be overpowered and some underpowered.

take for example war tank over pld. warrior is fine it has all the abilities it needs to fullfill its role (tank & dd). pld on the other hand doesn't have all the neccessary abilities to fullfill its role as a (tank & party saver). changing the numbers on pld dps, defense, etc. isnt the true answer, yes its a factor but more imporantly you need the abilities to do your role and when you don't have that more defense, dps etc. kinda sorta won't help out too much.

[Duelle]

take for example war tank over pld. warrior is fine it has all the abilities it needs to fullfill its role (tank & dd). pld on the other hand doesn't have all the neccessary abilities to fullfill its role as a (tank & party saver). changing the numbers on pld dps, defense, etc. isnt the true answer, yes its a factor but more imporantly you need the abilities to do your role and when you don't have that more defense, dps etc. kinda sorta won't help out too much.

PLD needs both, IMO. Better DPS and enmity generating attacks as well as more abilities. I'd personally bring back Circle Blade as a PLD-exclusive weapon skill (GLA used to have it before the simplification). Allow PLD to gain more from STR (normal +attack as well as +block value or block rate), and buff sword damage slightly. That would be in addition to the coming PLD buffs.

Holy Succor looks like a good idea on paper, and is one of the cases where SE lifted something from WoW and blended it to their PLD design. Problem is, Holy Succor is basically Beacon of Light, which belongs to the healing paladin spec; not the guy with the shield taking damage for his comrades (prot) or the guy smashing faces with a two-handed hammer while burning his foes with holy light and righteous fire (ret), but the guy that stands in the back with the casters (holy). In short, SE stole the wrong idea from the wrong paladin spec. >.>;

Edit: For argument's sake, if you really want to help the healer side of PLD, I'd first make holy succor 1 second cast time or instant cast. Then we can do one of two things. Turn it into a smart heal (Holy Succor: Heals you for X HP and a party member within 10 yalms of you for 50% of the healed amount. The secondary heal always targets the player with the lowest HP percentage) or a mini group heal (Holy Succor: Heals you for X HP and all allies around you for 25% of the healed amount).

The current implementation doesn't really help because of how the targetting system works. You have to break target, select the party member you need to heal and then let loose. Too much time wasted. Might work if XIV supported mouse-over macros, but even then I'd argue the implementation is not befitting of a front liner.

[stanleyyoung]

PLD needs both, IMO. Better DPS and enmity generating attacks as well as more abilities. I'd personally bring back Circle Blade as a PLD-exclusive weapon skill (GLA used to have it before the simplification). Allow PLD to gain more from STR (normal +attack as well as +block value or block rate), and buff sword damage slightly. That would be in addition to the coming PLD buffs.

Holy Succor looks like a good idea on paper, and is one of the cases where SE lifted something from WoW and blended it to their PLD design. Problem is, Holy Succor is basically Beacon of Light, which belongs to the healing paladin spec; not the guy with the shield taking damage for his comrades (prot), but the guy that stands in the back with the casters (holy). In short, SE stole the wrong idea from the wrong paladin spec. >.>;

pld does need a boost in numbers a bit, but if the ablilities it had were better and some new ones were added thats the key to it tanking well. I see it as now currently holy succor, cover and outmanuevar should be the main tanking abilities behind pld.

improving cover to not only protect an ally and trasfering enimty to pld but regen mp constantly while the target is covered would help with more enimty generation from doing more heals with holy succor keeping himself alive and party members also, thus making pld a desired tank for party survivablitity. outmanuevaer on the other hand needs great improvement on blocking rate and mp regen. warrior would still be desire tank for a parties that have a high outright dps to take down mob fast while pld is the desired tank for long, dragged on fights.

this all comes down to class/job identification and the roles they play & how they go about doing so with the numbers being a big factor but the roles & ID along with uniqueness be achieved via the abilities that the classes and jobs use.

[Frein]

The current implementation doesn't really help because of how the targetting system works. You have to break target, select the party member you need to heal and then let loose. Too much time wasted. Might work if XIV supported mouse-over macros, but even then I'd argue the implementation is not befitting of a front liner.

It'd be a lot easier if you played with sub-targets on. I believe sub-targets off only works well for WHM, BLM and BRD.