Pronouns???

[ViolaLance]

Hmm. Would say this is an interestingly new debate, but it is an old one. Very old depending on the claims and situations of many through what the real world has shown. An old debate, just using the current flavor added on while ignore the old struggles of those who fought hard to get the debate to this point.

While inclusiveness seem like a great gesture, it is also a damning isolating posture as well. There is a reach that not one, or the other must come to agree on, but ideally to just be there as a thought. I am neither for, nor against this type of addition. What I am for is logical character and story building that drives the plot and subplots forward to success and against hammered in shoehorning for the sake of [reasons] cause of emotional and personal morals or lack there of based on social standings and trends that do not make sense.

Inclusion, can be done in a sense if based by neutrality if simply going by modern function of pronouns versus the standard common use of pronouns. Yes, the two may see similar, but are vastly different. Since all humans use pronouns, the standard common is what the everyday "Joe / Jane" uses "Oh... I think they went to the store, so we stayed here until then. But, if you wish to check, he/she might be in their room." - while the modern function illustrates a more unique individualism of identity "he/him/ she/her / they/them etc..."

While it can be done, though it most likely be an incredibly daunting task (I'm sure I cant even imaging the troubles) it would have to be done on a global level, not regional. Global - Also, it opens up more, from what would be unique and insightful to just trouble some (even if it is of good intentions). For an example to say, they press with this idea, thus being done on a global level, to match those regions in the global market where the game is offered. That in mind, let us move forward.
What is it for others to request even further unique identity additions to feel inclusion. Let us go with an easy one. Deaf (since I am and to lazy to be really original at this point). Most (yes including the pro-pronoun inclusion) would easily state "You have captions, your already covered" type of response. True, captions are there, but how is that; using the pronoun logic here, how is that inclusive to us? To those who have to sign?

To have the cast, every single NPC and thus, our characters using Sign Language so we can see and feel apart of the story with out having odd glances from other people or being accused of appropriations (yes, it has happened were a few select have tried to publicly call out deaf / signers for Cultural Appropriations against urban youths and Italians for some odd reason) or random people walking up shouting in our ears as jokes just to see if we are or not. Yes it happens, no many of us have different severity levels, and most of all, your breath stinks; don't do it. On track again, to have the cast communicate on a level where captions can be toggled off.

Seems simple right? The cast (major and minor) already move their arms often, even fingers more than most games on the market. Many would change their tune, "yeah, it could work. The work is half way done already - let the player and the cast sign!"

Here is the catch. Those who know how to sign and play this game would probably cringe at the idea and at those making the aspect that the work is half way done as just, being absolutely wrong in every aspect. Sign language is pretty much an art form as much as a form of communication as well. Those who are deaf of any severity are minor compare to talkies, we have no Universal Sign Language (or USL for short.) Each global region have their own sign language based on finger, hand, arm and facial movements and expressions. Just to simplify; ASL (American) and BSL (British), these two are vastly different, and each has their own 300 variations of finger, hand, arm and facial expressions and movements. Now back to matter at hand (pun intended). Now lets look at the concept of adding this in, to implement this from the start to current and future expansions.

Imagine the work that would be required add just one sign language (SL) into the game, now think about asking it to be done on a global scale... To have every single NPC in game just use a single region's sign language would be beyond any studio's limitations, now add in the global market. This is the reasons why captions are added. A compromise, a neutral one at that, to a group that has been in the debate far longer than most (not all but most, as there are many more groups who been in this debate for far longer) so we do not have to fight for inclusion,Just to be apart of the stories games provide us - an escape from that debate in the real world.

Now, back to pronouns. Each nation and region has their own. And yes, majority have their own versions of standard common use to modern function use, many have simplistic use that we here use, but as well, very detailed aspects as well that are equally as vast and go into great depth already being used in the Modern Function. Though not nearly as grand adding in SL, this would have to be done on yes. A global level for each region and nation where this game is offered. While it may seem forth right and positive. The level of work could be seen as more damaging versus productive. And to use any retort similar to or "Just make it for the US/West." Would invite those who would point out it isn't inclusive and just self centered selfish request argument which would devolve the debate much further.

The goal would to seek a neutral compromise first and foremost that is simple and not short term, but can be seen as good from both short and long term - Yes, a Neutral Compromise seems like a simple ask, and simplicity often in the eyes on the individual seems heartless and meaningless actually provides benefits and opens the doors to actual progress to that of the many; channeling my inner Spock here. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

On that note - are pronouns, in the Modern Function Use a requirement or a necessity for an individual or a regional in the eyes of entertainment an market? In my honest opinion here. I cannot say, nor answer cause I truly do not know, I can say what I feel it should be, but it isn't absolute nor would it be accurate.

So. TLDR: Strive for a Neutral Compromise that can be easily implemented and not shoehorned in were it takes away from the characters, cast and story/plot. Thus, expect naysayers, and supporters of all walks that will take everything and destroy it and turn it into something else, to a unique perspective that allows everyone to weigh in on both the pros and cons of the concept.

Just my 2 gil.

[Bright-Flower]

For now people can simply put preferred pronouns in their search info it they want to.

While in theory I think it'd be a nice add a way to specify pronouns, it would unfortunately be too massive an undertaking to make it retroactively affect the entire game. But would be all for a new game being designed with the flexibility from the ground up. Ultimately having the ability to have npcs address you by your preferred pronouns would be harmless to anyone who wants to keep the default, as you generally wouldn't SEE how npcs address other players anyway.

As far as immersion goes, I see no harm in it either. It won't hurt YOUR immersion if someone ELSE has the ability to select their own pronouns because it won't alter your experience in the slightest. And it's not like the character creation process is a 'lore' thing anyway, it'd be no more immersion breaking to see there than the ability to adjust your height, gender, skin color etc.

The only real argument I see as valid against not allowing players to select pronouns for the sake of npcs/cutscenes is that it would simply be too big of an undertaking to apply retroactively.

As far as social interactions between players, search info seems like a good place to just put your preferred pronouns. People can look for it if they have a mind to or not.

[Lenivy]

Well then I can only assume it's because the voting form was too complex for you

Calm your horses wannabe martyr. Onyly thing you achived thus far in here is to make more people dislike you and "virtues" u stand for.

[Andy_T93]

Calm your horses wannabe martyr. Onyly thing you achived thus far in here is to make more people dislike you and "virtues" u stand for.

As surprising as this may seem, being liked by people who are actively trying to create a case against the inclusion of an already marginalised group of people isn't a primary concern of mine.

[Theodric]

I think that there is no obligation for development teams or consumers to bend over backwards and entertain every single request ever made in the name of 'representation'.

I think a lot of people forget that this is a video game. It's a real shame that such passion and outrage is so rarely directed at actual content.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I think that there is no obligation for development teams or consumers to bend over backwards and entertain every single request ever made in the name of 'representation'.

I think a lot of people forget that this is a video game. It's a real shame that such passion and outrage is so rarely directed at actual content.

If this happened we would probably actually see an upgrade in content rather than a downgrade. People really do put their attention in all the wrong areas

[Lenivy]

As surprising as this may seem, being liked by people who are actively trying to create a case against the inclusion of an already marginalised group of people isn't a primary concern of mine.

I hope neutrals do not interest You as well, as You most likely managed to convince quite a bit of them, including myself, to dislike You and Your cause quite much after that tyrade of Yours.

[Iscah]

As surprising as this may seem, being liked by people who are actively trying to create a case against the inclusion of an already marginalised group of people isn't a primary concern of mine.

I am broadly on your side of the issue, and I think you're sabotaging your own argument by turning it into an insult war.

If you want to look like the rational side of a debate, be better than the other side.

[greasy]

Seeking representation is not setting an agenda. Please stop equating the two.

I would love for the game to allow you to select pronouns separately from your body type. I also realize this may be very difficult to implement on a design level, as many others have pointed out. What would be more difficult is adding a third pronoun option outside of m/f, such as they/them, as they would need to go back and modify not only quest dialogue but re-record or edit voice lines. But if one was able to select pronouns and body type separately perhaps the game could refer to the pronoun selection instead of body type which seems like a much easier feat. But I'm not a game dev! This is just all about thinking about what is possible. And it's just ideas!

Trans rights are human rights

thx

[Bright-Flower]

Seeking representation is not setting an agenda. Please stop equating the two.

I would love for the game to allow you to select pronouns separately from your body type. I also realize this may be very difficult to implement on a design level, as many others have pointed out. What would be more difficult is adding a third pronoun option outside of m/f, such as they/them, as they would need to go back and modify not only quest dialogue but re-record or edit voice lines. But if one was able to select pronouns and body type separately perhaps the game could refer to the pronoun selection instead of body type which seems like a much easier feat. But I'm not a game dev! This is just all about thinking about what is possible. And it's just ideas!

Trans rights are human rights

thx

It's hard to say since obviously I'm not privy to the game's code, but detaching the pronouns from the gender selected at character creation might not be something that could be easily slapped on. Sometimes things that seem like they'd be easy from an outside perspective are actually not quick and easy changes to make in the code you have to work with.

It'd be nice to have but I don't see it happening for FFXIV. Though if they do another MMO or game in general with a character creator it'd be a nice option to have and wouldn't be tricky to implement if they accounted for it at the start of development.