Pronouns???

[Wilford111]

Please explain to me how giving someone the option to have a different pronoun in the story is corrupting your experience. If you don't want your character to be referred to as "they" then simply don't select it. The story is a solo experience.

This is a fair question, and it's one I did spend a good amount of time thinking about. It really isn't an easy question to answer, especially since the immediate reaction from some people is "well you're just a bigot" if you're not okay with it. I do think it's an important question to answer, as brushing it off will do nothing for progress. However little it might be.

I think it is largely a matter of perspective whether or not you get upset if someone misgenders you. People have misgendered me in-game before, and I imagine this happens a lot in general. Especially if a player intentionally chooses a gender that isn't their own. I don't get upset if someone misgenders me, in fact, I think of it as sort of a psudo-compliment.

Let's think about the psychology of misgendering. If someone refers to you as "she", that's due to their own perspective of who/what you are, based on whatever limited knowledge they have, and not out of intent to how you will feel about it. However you take it depends largely on your own perception. What is the big deal with someone calling you "she", whether it's accurate or not? Is there a problem with being female? Is there a problem with being male? Why? Why would you feel hurt instead of feeling complimented? Why feel strongly about it at all?

We're not even talking about misgendering in real life though. We're talking about misgendering in a game, where you have free reign to choose what your gender is, among a host of other features. Then, to take it a step further, we're not even talking about a human misgendering you. We're talking about a computer program. Is it the program's fault that it called you "she" when your pronouns are "he/him/they"?

Now, you might say, you know it isn't anyone's fault that you felt hurt or offended. That is just your natural response whenever you get misgendered. Fair enough. Then in that case, I would say it is up to you to improve yourself, so that you can rise above feeling offended when there is no offense given or intended. You have the power to feel how you want to feel. That is personal strength and responsibility. That you might still feel offended, but you understand that it is a personal thing and you shouldn't expect the world to change just because you have a personal issue. Everyone has personal issues that they work through everyday.

But there are those who aren't so understanding. There are those who expect everyone else to change themselves around them just so they can feel better. They don't accept compromises and will act unpleasantly until they get their way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone who is like this is a coddled spoiled brat. Everyone is different. What I'm saying is that there is a spectrum, and those that support this feature implementation are in favor of those higher on that spectrum to always get what they want.

Look, at the end of the day, this is just another part of the political culture war. You might say that "people's identities aren't political! They're human rights!" Yeah I've heard that one before. See above for the rebuttal to that statement.

Would this feature ruin the game for me? Absolutely not. But it is a small step in making this game more enjoyable for a certain group of people, and less enjoyable for another. I'm on the latter side, and I will do what I can to make this game more enjoyable. Not just for me, but for the majority.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[TroySoFab]

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

And you didn't actually answer the question. This thread is not about accidental or even intentional misgendering people in public/ingame conversations. So lets not derail into that. The topic at hand is allowing characters to pick their gender in STORY content, and possibly adding a "they/them option" to STORY dialogue. If you do not want any exposure to your character being called "they", that's fine. Don't select the option. Adding such a feature takes nothing away from you, because you can completely and totally avoid it, with no extra effort put forward on your part.

[HollowedDoll]

You could just also not self insert.

[Kolsykol]

And you didn't actually answer the question. This thread is not about accidental or even intentional misgendering people in public/ingame conversations. So lets not derail into that. The topic at hand is allowing characters to pick their gender in STORY content, and possibly adding a "they/them option" to STORY dialogue. If you do not want any exposure to your character being called "they", that's fine. Don't select the option. Adding such a feature takes nothing away from you, because you can completely and totally avoid it, with no extra effort put forward on your part.

I am just curious here, but are you talking about people like the Scions referring to you as '' they ''?

Because I am just wondering how random NPC's would even know about your pronoun.
It's not like people irl can read minds either and know about that, most people will just assume based on appearance.

[Wilford111]

And you didn't actually answer the question. This thread is not about accidental or even intentional misgendering people in public/ingame conversations. So lets not derail into that. The topic at hand is allowing characters to pick their gender in STORY content, and possibly adding a "they/them option" to STORY dialogue. If you do not want any exposure to your character being called "they", that's fine. Don't select the option. Adding such a feature takes nothing away from you, because you can completely and totally avoid it, with no extra effort put forward on your part.

I did answer your question, though it was rather vague. I apologize.

Adding a feature like that wouldn't just remind us all of the current political culture war in a fantasy game we play to forget about the real world, it would be an inclination that the devs support the side that I and players like myself aren't on. Which is pretty depressing.

Keep in mind that this is the tl;dr version of my answer. I didn't write all of that for nothing. If you aren't satisfied by the short version, please read the long version.

EDIT: Sigh I'm really unhappy with the short answer, so here's a concise list of points:
1. It takes me out of the immersion to remind me about the culture war happening irl.
2. It's not necessary to add since you can pick your in-game gender anyway, unlike irl where you can't (among a host of other things - see long answer).
3. Implementation would be indication of SE supporting this kind of coddling behavior, which isn't a good thing.

[Hysterior]

I am not even against a gender-neutral pronoun, I just really think it should be a new word instead of a word that also means something else.

Sure... let me give you some other one-minute Google knowledge:

"They with a singular antecedent goes back to the Middle English of the 14th century (slightly younger than they with a plural antecedent, which was borrowed from Old Norse in the 13th century), and has remained in use for centuries in spite of its proscription by traditional grammarians beginning in the mid 18th century."

"Informal spoken English exhibits universal use of the singular they. An examination by Jürgen Gerner of the British National Corpus published in 1998 found that British speakers, regardless of social status, age, sex, or region, used the singular they more often than the gender-neutral he or other options."

"The earliest known attempt to create gender-neutral pronouns dates back to 1792, when Scottish economist James Anderson advocated for an indeterminate pronoun "ou"."

Why do people act like it is something new? Is it because non-binary people use they that people suddenly get weird about it?
So odd...

[Kolsykol]

Sure... let me give you some other one-minute Google knowledge:

"They with a singular antecedent goes back to the Middle English of the 14th century (slightly younger than they with a plural antecedent, which was borrowed from Old Norse in the 13th century), and has remained in use for centuries in spite of its proscription by traditional grammarians beginning in the mid 18th century."

"Informal spoken English exhibits universal use of the singular they. An examination by Jürgen Gerner of the British National Corpus published in 1998 found that British speakers, regardless of social status, age, sex, or region, used the singular they more often than the gender-neutral he or other options."

"The earliest known attempt to create gender-neutral pronouns dates back to 1792, when Scottish economist James Anderson advocated for an indeterminate pronoun "ou"."

Why do people act like it is something new? Is it because non-binary people use they that people suddenly get weird about it?
So odd...

You're missing the point a bit, the point is that the intent wasn't for it to be gender neutral in how you're using it.
You're looking at how people used the term with your modern day glasses on.
Do you think that people back then had non-binary people on their minds as they spoke?

I am not disputing that people are using it with that intent now ( online at least, I think it's far less common outside the internet ).

Edit:
A new term altogether would just be less likely to cause confusion too.
If anything I actually think that '' they '' just others non-binary people even more because of how different it is.
That's why even tho I think it sounds dumb and it's barely used I think that how it works in Swedish is better because it's less likely to cause confusion and still sounds like it fits in with the other gender words.

Like I dunno maybe you just don't care about intent but I do.
I think the intent behind a term matters, and the intent behind '' they '' was clearly not to be gender neutral in how what you're talking about and it kinda muddles things together unless you already know who the person is going into it.
If it was a new separate term altogether you'd know regardless.
Lets say that the new term is '' heb ''.

'' They went to the supermarket. ''

'' Heb went to the supermarket. ''.

Do you see what I mean...?
In the latter you'd know the person in question is non-binary, in the former you wouldn't they might as well not be.

[Fyrebrand]

Forgive us when we want to have the things we love not be corrupted by outside issues or politics. I feel like this game and the dev team has gone through great lengths to accommodate as many people as possible with this game, without going too far as to ruin it for everyone else.

Please explain to me how giving someone the option to have a different pronoun in the story is corrupting your experience. If you don't want your character to be referred to as "they" then simply don't select it. The story is a solo experience.

It's all a game. It's basically the same game people played back when same-sex unions weren't yet permitted for eternal bond.

"I treat everyone with respect," but they refuse to grant some very basic manners and human dignities that they take for granted themselves.

"I'm not a bigot," but they can't resist voicing how disgusted they are that a marginalized group being validated will ruin the game. Even though it won't impact them at all.

"Stop bringing politics and outside issues into Eorzea," when they reject another player's personal identity because it offends their delicate political and religious sensibilities.

Would this feature ruin the game for me? Absolutely not.

Are you for real!? You literally just said it would ruin the game. We have the quote.

[Wilford111]

It's all a game. It's basically the same game people played back when same-sex unions weren't yet permitted for eternal bond.

"I treat everyone with respect," but they refuse to grant some very basic manners and human dignities that they take for granted themselves.

"I'm not a bigot," but they can't resist voicing how disgusted they are that a marginalized group being validated will ruin the game. Even though it won't impact them at all.

"Stop bringing politics and outside issues into Eorzea," when they reject another player's personal identity because it offends their delicate political and religious sensibilities.

I was trying to throw you a bone and think critically about why I'm not okay with this feature. You decided to ignore all of that and continued to accuse me of being bigoted and intolerant. Congratulations. Keep seeing things in black and white.

It's people like you who continue to keep this divide amongst people who have differing opinions.

Are you for real!? You literally just said it would ruin the game. We have the quote.

And congratulations for taking my quote out of context and ignoring everything I said after that. Very mature.

[MilkieTea]

I was trying to throw you a bone and think critically about why I'm not okay with this feature. You decided to ignore all of that and continued to accuse me of being bigoted and intolerant. Congratulations. Keep seeing things in black and white.

It's people like you who continue to keep this divide amongst people who have differing opinions.



And congratulations for taking my quote out of context and ignoring everything I said after that. Very mature.

Alright. Can you explain, without being vague this time, why it is a bad idea to allow for a *simple toggle* between whether or not the *story* refers to you with male dialogue or female dialogue.

No changing the subject, no talking about political issues (because this really isn’t political.) Just, in plain speak: why do you think it is a bad idea to allow for a toggle between male or female dialogue options?