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Thread: Pronouns???

  1. #251
    Player
    juicybug's Avatar
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    Character
    Sophia Bettencourt
    World
    Sargatanas
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    Red Mage Lv 91
    This is a fantasy world. The idea of Trans LGBTQABCDEFG+-= may not exist in the world of FFXIV. Real world elements don't have to exist in every written setting. I don't think they need to pull every line of dialogue where the WoL is referenced as Sir, Mr., Lass, Madam, Miss/Ms., My lady/lordship etc. as the translation might be off or nonexistent in other languages, also it seems like a huge waste of resources. Maybe something in future dialogues allowing the use of the word "Ser" rather than sir/miss, since it's refers to a person in instances where the gender is not known or not important, it's just a respective title given to those of non noble birth and obtain a "knight" like rank. It could be better in that case of avoiding first world problems like forcing labels. The real problem with this game is the lackluster character creation options. I should be able to wear lipstick, eyeshadow, blush, and a face stamp/tattoo all at once and not pick one over the other- also needs better hairstyles no more solo bang, spiky cloud-like hairstyles or mullets. The other issue I have is the fact that Viera and Hrothgar likely will not be getting any visual additions like new hairstyles or faces in more years to come but yay, male viera who also can't wear hats and will not get any new hairs.
    (2)
    Last edited by juicybug; 05-20-2021 at 10:48 AM. Reason: typo

  2. #252
    Player
    Penthea's Avatar
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    Gridania
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    Nettle Creidne
    World
    Moogle
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    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Juzjuzz View Post
    Yes ppl guive importance to pronouns and it's a mistake. You got hurt because you were thinking it was more than it should be. Ppl used pronouns to hurt you because they think it's important to see you as a "girl who likes only girly things like other girls". But in reality your pronoun is not there to please anyone, including you.
    No I got hurt because they tried to make me feel like I didn't belong anywhere because I supposedly could never be a proper boy or girl. They didn't refer to me with pronouns and otherwise treated me well. Their pronoun use was often paired with bullying me. An older kid even joked about pulling down my pants to see what I really am. They gave pronouns huge importance and negative connotations, not me. Please don't tell me how I felt and why. Only I know this, not you.

    And frankly it's disgusting that you are implying it's seven year old me's fault for wanting to be addressed as who I am. Oh yea how dare a child want to feel comfortable in their own skin. How ridiculous I was to want to be able to like both barbies and transformers and still be seen as a girl without having to justify why who I am is an okay thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juzjuzz View Post
    Some people just can't accept whats different that's all, even today. They don't get why ppl like certains things so they fear it. It's funny coming from me who says "pronouns choices is a bad thing" but whats the point of pronouns in the 1rst place? Just making a guy who wanted to be girl feel better? Is that even a good thing? He could be as girly as he wants and still being called "he".
    While you're at it you may as well say "what's the point in names in the first place? Just to make a girl who wants to be called John feel better? Is that even a good thing? She could be as John as she wants and still be called Mary".

    Pronouns are often used in place of a name, so they often -feel- like a name. If I say I'm Mary don't call me John. If I say I'm a she don't call me he. It's really that simple.

    I never had gender identity issues. I had issues with other people's ideas of gender identity being forced upon me.

    As I already said I'm fortunate that period didn't last very long. I'm very stubborn so I didn't stop playing with boy and girls toys. I can only guess the bullying stopped because it didn't have the desired effect. The only thing I changed was I tried to avoid those people. I didn't try to avoid being who I am to please them. Their actions made me feel very unhappy but I didn't give in.

    I only had a super tiny taste of what it's like to be trans or non-binary. And that taste was still so horrible. I never forgot it. Which is hugely why I address someone by whatever they choose. I don't want to make someone else feel the way I did. Not even by the smallest bit. It was cruel and I don't want to be cruel.
    (5)
    Last edited by Penthea; 05-20-2021 at 11:25 AM.

  3. #253
    Player Theodric's Avatar
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    Character
    Matthieu Desrosiers
    World
    Cerberus
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    Reaper Lv 90
    Unfortunately people get bullied for all sorts of different reasons. Some people are bullied for being too short, others for being too tall. Some get bullied for wearing glasses, others get bullied for being quiet and so on and so forth. I don't think people should feel as if their experiences are more or less important than anybody else's in that regard. I've got a scar from a knife wound from a violent mugging, for example, though I worked through my trauma and I'd never once imply that other people's own experiences are better or worse than my own.

    As a gay guy, I also strive for equality which means that, in my opinion, I should be treated as just another normal person rather than a delicate flower that needs to be catered to and protected at every cost. Indeed, the only times I have ever encountered homophobia in my life is whenever I've shot down attempts by 'concerned parties' to exploit me as a means of virtue signaling...but that's a debate best suited to elsewhere, I suppose.

    Each to their own, though, I suppose.
    (13)

  4. #254
    Player
    StriderShinryu's Avatar
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    Coeurl
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    Character
    Alexalea Snowsong
    World
    Coeurl
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    Red Mage Lv 90
    I don't have any issues at all with introducing a pronoun selection. Unfortunately, as many others have stated, it would probably take a lot of work in the coding end to make it work.
    (3)

  5. #255
    Player
    Juzjuzz's Avatar
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    Jul 2019
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    J'uzo Okita
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    Louisoix
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    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Penthea View Post
    ...
    I never said it's your fault if other kids started to bully you. I just think it's was possible to not even get hurt from the start and i'm not saying it's easy. Even if other kids started and did bad things to you, understanding that you could have done a better job defending yourself is a step in the right direction (for you 1rst and maybe other ppl). Not putting too much importance to some words is a good way to not get hurt imo (just like you use a knife with caution).

    Yes you can love to do wtf you want, i loved to play barbies as a kid and i am a straight man (played female miqo when i started the game, tried female roe too lol), but it has nothing to do with pronouns. It's not here to say "i am feminine/masculine/gay/straight/like girls things/like boy things/(insert wtf you want there)". It's just here to show witch gender you are born with and this has nothing to with how you feel.

    Your don't have to justify anything and never had to. You didn't have a choice in the pronoun you got, other ppl as well. You don't have to justify liking something or how you behave. As long as you don't force others into anything, no one should care. And other don't have to force you into anything. That's why i say pronouns are not there for feelings.

    I wouldnt be surprised same ppl who bullied you where using pronouns for feelings as well.

    Pronouns are not the same thing as a name. The two are linked (because the name you get can be linked to your gender), but it's two different things. Parents choose the name of their children, not their gender. Children don't choose their names. But pronouns are not here to feel like a name, names are here for that. Using pronouns and names in the same manner is a bad idea.
    Your name is not here for show what you should be and not "i see myself as". In the most basic level, it's only here to make communications easier (and i prefer using names like that, it's way less confusing lol).

    I understand that's a painful experience but it doesn't change my mind, in fact i'm even more convinced that gender choice is not a good thing. I think gender choice guives more pain, it looks nice and gentle but it's really not imo.
    It's just saying "you are a man if you think and act like a man"/"you are a woman if you think and act like a woman"/"you are inbetween if you think and act like a man and a woman". That's BS, just cliches all over the place. Only ppl who fit in will feel good.

    No one has to fit in anything.

    Pls don't take it badly, i just what i think about this subject. I'm not trying to hurt you, just saying what i truly think.
    (4)
    Last edited by Juzjuzz; 05-20-2021 at 06:25 PM.

  6. #256
    Player Ammokkx's Avatar
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    Khenda Chelae
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    Exodus
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    Dark Knight Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Juzjuzz View Post
    I never said it's your fault if other kids started to bully you. I just think it's was possible to not even get hurt from the start and i'm not saying it's easy. Even if other kids started and did bad things to you, understanding that you could have done a better job defending yourself is a step in the right direction (for you 1rst and maybe other ppl). Not putting too much importance to some words is a good way to not get hurt imo (just like you use a knife with caution).
    literal victim blaming, my dude.

    Shouldn't have had to protect themselves to begin with. They shouldn't even need to take those steps. The fact they need to is a problem in and of itself.
    (5)

  7. #257
    Player
    MilkieTea's Avatar
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    C'erise Vanesse
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    Maduin
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    Red Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Juzjuzz View Post
    I understand that's a painful experience but it doesn't change my mind, in fact i'm even more convinced that gender choice is not a good thing. I think gender choice guives more pain, it looks nice and gentle but it's really not imo.
    It's just saying "you are a man if you think and act like a man"/"you are a woman if you think and act like a woman"/"you are inbetween when think and act like a man and a woman". That's BS, just cliches all over the place. Only ppl who fit in will feel good.

    No one has to fit in anything.
    Id like to clear up a little bit of a misconception it seems youre having. Im not a man because I think or act like a man - in fact, I also played with barbies growing up. I loved dress up games, dressing up “like a girl”, putting on my step moms makeup, walking around in high heels. To this day, I love dresses, shoes, all things pink and considered “girly.” But I still grew up calling myself a boy when others called me a girl, because that was what my brain said (not what I THOUGHT, but what my brain was signalling to my body). The dressing up? That felt like a costume to me. It was, well, playing dress up. And it felt the same way when I went to school and everyone called me “she” and said I was a girl because I looked like a girl on the outside.

    Just like you playing with barbie dolls didnt make you grow up to be less of a man, neither did it make me. The only thing that it did was make others think of me as more feminine than I felt.

    Transgender isnt changing to conform to societies expectations of what a man, or a woman, or a nonbinary person is. It’s fixing the mismatch from your OWN brain to your body. For some people, that IS conforming to societal expectations - dressing overly masculine and acting with bravado, puffing their chest out and screaming about trucks etc. For others its making small changes to how the people closest to them address them and interact with them. Take people like Blaire White, she fully transitioned sans bottom surgery. She feels comfortable without bottom surgery, because she reached a point where her brain wasnt screaming at her that her body wasn’t correct. It is DEFINITELY not societies expectation for a woman to have male genitals. But its as far as she needed to go to correct the mismatch.

    I dont even like Blaire (I think she’s a grifting POS who panders to right wing idiots who cant be bothered to do a modicum of research before spouting off their insane ideas) but shes a perfect example of what I mean.
    (2)

  8. #258
    Player
    Juzjuzz's Avatar
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    J'uzo Okita
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    Louisoix
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    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ammokkx View Post
    literal victim blaming, my dude.

    Shouldn't have had to protect themselves to begin with. They shouldn't even need to take those steps. The fact they need to is a problem in and of itself.
    Yes exactly. But you have to, learning how defend yourself is a good tool. I'm not saying other ppl are innocent (far from it), but you can't count on other to bring you hapiness all the time. Not everyone is nice sadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by MilkieTea View Post
    Id like to clear up a little bit of a misconception it seems youre having. Im not a man because I think or act like a man - in fact, I also played with barbies growing up. I loved dress up games, dressing up “like a girl”, putting on my step moms makeup, walking around in high heels. To this day, I love dresses, shoes, all things pink and considered “girly.” But I still grew up calling myself a boy when others called me a girl, because that was what my brain said (not what I THOUGHT, but what my brain was signalling to my body). The dressing up? That felt like a costume to me. It was, well, playing dress up. And it felt the same way when I went to school and everyone called me “she” and said I was a girl because I looked like a girl on the outside.

    Just like you playing with barbie dolls didnt make you grow up to be less of a man, neither did it make me. The only thing that it did was make others think of me as more feminine than I felt.

    Transgender isnt changing to conform to societies expectations of what a man, or a woman, or a nonbinary person is. It’s fixing the mismatch from your OWN brain to your body. For some people, that IS conforming to societal expectations - dressing overly masculine and acting with bravado, puffing their chest out and screaming about trucks etc. For others its making small changes to how the people closest to them address them and interact with them. Take people like Blaire White, she fully transitioned sans bottom surgery. She feels comfortable without bottom surgery, because she reached a point where her brain wasnt screaming at her that her body wasn’t correct. It is DEFINITELY not societies expectation for a woman to have male genitals. But its as far as she needed to go to correct the mismatch.

    I dont even like Blaire (I think she’s a grifting POS who panders to right wing idiots who cant be bothered to do a modicum of research before spouting off their insane ideas) but shes a perfect example of what I mean.
    I have nothing against ppl changing their bodies tbh, it's just the pronoun thing that bugs me. I can't accept it. To me it's not here to be used for confort. Even if they don't like it, they don't have to. Societal expectations are not even here to make ppl feel good and it's useless sometimes. Who cares about what you do with your body, as long as you don't hurt anyone else ?
    And to me your pronoun doesnt change if you change your body into something else (tbh i wont call you "she" if you are born as man, because i don't think calling you "she" just for being gentle is a good thing). You are born a man or a woman (unless you are intersex but then idk how it works for them), after that do wtf you want but don't bring me into it.
    I just have a different approach about all this, it's a really a complex subject xD.
    (2)
    Last edited by Juzjuzz; 05-20-2021 at 07:02 PM.

  9. #259
    Player
    HollyJollyPaca's Avatar
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    Adonis Peachblossom
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    Midgardsormr
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    Bard Lv 100
    What the hell did I start.....

    I just thought it was an easy implementation (apparently it's not) that would appease a lot of people, both on the LGBT spectrum and those who just want gender specific attributes.
    (3)

  10. #260
    Player
    MilkieTea's Avatar
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    C'erise Vanesse
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyJollyPaca View Post
    What the hell did I start.....

    I just thought it was an easy implementation (apparently it's not) that would appease a lot of people, both on the LGBT spectrum and those who just want gender specific attributes.
    lifeprotip dont bring up LGBT anything on forums, the people who dont like LGBT folks will find any way to derail it using slippery slope arguments, bad faith, or devolve into “issa menthol iwwneth” as you see.

    I dont know if it would be an easy implementation, neither do any of the people on here saying it would be hard. Its all assumptions, ahah.
    (4)

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