How is monk after the rework?

[Amh_Wilzuun]

You really don't have to radically redesign the job from the ground up to take the emphasis off of bootshine, you just have to change Dragon Kick back to an effect that slightly buffs every action instead of hyper charging one. That's functionally what it was as the blunt debuff, and if Dragon Kick were just a 10% Crit or Direct Hit buff to the Monk then it would do that without the need for a phase where you spam Leaden Bootshines.

There's been a lot to dislike about Shadowbringers Monk and while Leaden Bootshine isn't the worst thing about it, I still don't care for it. It's still part of the continued trend where Monk's original design has been weakened by implementing system wide changes to Monk when the job's form based combos made it work differently. I'd rather they change it back to something more similar to what it was pre-Shadowbringers rather than lean into Shadowbringers errors any further.

This sounds less satisfying and fun than the current iteration of the job where you work toward bootshine as the big damage attack. MNK already has a damage buff they maintain during their combos and another one to maintain sounds boring compared to the leaden fist buff. I also don’t see how it makes the monk more about the form based combos since there’s still gonna be an optional rotation to stick to, just without the satisfying bootshines. And if you don’t like perfect balance, suggest a better version of a burst phase. Saying it’s just spamming bootshine is still kinda disingenuous, but if you wanted to make it more complex to build towards a big attack that could be cool.

[Shurrikhan]

This sounds less satisfying and fun than the current iteration of the job where you work toward bootshine as the big damage attack.

That depends on how it's situated. Personally, I found Dragon Kick in the context of ARR and StB gameplay (due to Demolish's duration at those times allowing for Dragon Kick to be dropped just before Demolish and its own reapplication in exchange for a Bootshine and True Strike to notable net potency gain) more interesting than the current Leaden Fist combos.

I also don’t see how it makes the monk more about the form based combos since there’s still gonna be an optional rotation to stick to, just without the satisfying bootshines.

Again, the past (and especially the StB Riddle of Fire slow-down) has done this part better, as optimal play then often tended to itself rotate between different rotations, while further changing more or less on the fly based on add spawns, number of DoT targets being maintained, and forced downtime.

And if you don’t like perfect balance, suggest a better version of a burst phase. Saying it’s just spamming bootshine is still kinda disingenuous, but if you wanted to make it more complex to build towards a big attack that could be cool.

For my part, Perfect Balance was a plentifully interesting mechanic back when it offered distinct advantages in AoE, utility, and ST throughput, and especially when those throughput affordances depended on one's other abilities and starting form (e.g. Riddle of Wind, Coeurl form). If anything, it was the siphoning of AoE potency from Rockbreaker to other (new) AoE GCDs, the loss of our utility, and the removal of our core mechanic so devalued that pinnacle ability, not any flaw in the concept itself.

But, of course, I'm the in the apparent minority who actually liked Greased Lightning as a mechanic, perhaps most especially when it was a challenge to maintain (e.g. Brayflox HM speedruns, T10, etc., back when it had only a 10s duration), and would rather not have had the job's core mechanic gutted rather than revised and polished, let alone on a vague hope that, contrary to all recent job designs, we'd get something interesting in its place.

That said, it's not disingenuous to say that PB is currently Leaden Fist spam. Optimally used under an ideal GCD length, it is.

They should just let the guy who designed Tifa gameplay from FFVII remake to do the design for 6.0 MNK.

Sadly, I doubt much of the spectacle of that system would carry over to one where it's very obvious you're just punching vaguely in the direction of a generic cylinder unaffected by your actions, in place of VII-R's in which the actual timing and geometry matters.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

That said, it's not disingenuous to say that PB is currently Leaden Fist spam. Optimally used under an ideal GCD length, it is.

It's literally not though, and it's not close to being like Inner Release.

[Shurrikhan]

It's literally not though, and it's not close to being like Inner Release.

It is literally prep Leaden Fist, spend Leaden Fist, prep Leaden Fist, spend Leaden Fist, prep Leaden Fist...

What is that if not Leaden Fist spam?

As for something else Perfect Balance could be: Blitzes. I said this during the 90 page Monk Needs a Rework thread, but Perfect Balance could be used to tie the Form Based combos into the Blitz System. You activate Perfect Balance and will be able to do a short string of Weaponskills in an order that would correspond to a given sequence of Opo Opo, Coeurl, and Raptor skills. The correct sequence would allow you to use some sort of finishing move like Suplex, Dolphin Blow, Rising Phoenix, or Phantom Rush. Unlike Dances or Ninjutsus, you'd still execute the skills during your Blitz period rather than just doing some other animation.

With the old being hacked to pieces, this at least seems a worthy successor as something new but related.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

It is literally prep Leaden Fist, spend Leaden Fist, prep Leaden Fist, spend Leaden Fist, prep Leaden Fist...

What is that if not Leaden Fist spam?

I like how you said "prep leaden fist" instead of "dragon kick on a different positional" because it would mean you could say leaden fist more frequently and make it sound more spammy. Call me a trash player if you want, but alternating positionals for 6 GCDs straight with busy OCGDs in the mix can be mechanically challenging for some multiple encounters in this game.

[Shurrikhan]

I like how you said "prep leaden fist" instead of "dragon kick on a different positional" because it would mean you could say leaden fist more frequently and make it sound more spammy. Call me a trash player if you want, but alternating positionals for 6 GCDs straight with busy OCGDs in the mix can be mechanically challenging for some multiple encounters in this game.

You have 4 charges of positional-nullifying skills and, on the average not-spinning boss, need move less than a foot to go from flank to rear to flank again.

[SpeckledBurd]

This sounds less satisfying and fun than the current iteration of the job where you work toward bootshine as the big damage attack. MNK already has a damage buff they maintain during their combos and another one to maintain sounds boring compared to the leaden fist buff. I also don’t see how it makes the monk more about the form based combos since there’s still gonna be an optional rotation to stick to, just without the satisfying bootshines. And if you don’t like perfect balance, suggest a better version of a burst phase. Saying it’s just spamming bootshine is still kinda disingenuous, but if you wanted to make it more complex to build towards a big attack that could be cool.

It's fundamentally the same feel and it opens up the opportunity for the big hit that you build some other way as Vent suggested rather than doubling down on Leaden Bootshines. Again, I frankly don't consider Leaden Bootshine to be satisfying as a big hit at all and the amount of potency tied up in its positional is so high that it's actually something of an issue since it's functionally the same as missing every single positional a Dragoon would have in both combos all tied up on one GCD. I'd rather see Tornado Kick be turned into a Weaponskill so we can actually see it's entire animation and have it be the final blow of a Riddle of Fire window, or properly executing 15 positionals consecutively giving you a resource that would cut the recast of Six Sided Star in half allowing it to be used rotationally. There's plenty of more interesting things that can be done with Monk's kit than leaning into Bootshine.

It's no more disingenuous to say that you spam Leaden Bootshine during Perfect Balance than it is to say you spam Fell Cleave in Inner Release. That's just what you do in it, to the point where it's optimal to allow Twin Snakes to fall off in the middle of Riddle of Fire to continue spamming it.

As for something else Perfect Balance could be: Blitzes. I said this during the 90 page Monk Needs a Rework thread, but Perfect Balance could be used to tie the Form Based combos into the Blitz System. You activate Perfect Balance and will be able to do a short string of Weaponskills in an order that would correspond to a given sequence of Opo Opo, Coeurl, and Raptor skills. The correct sequence would allow you to use some sort of finishing move like Suplex, Dolphin Blow, Rising Phoenix, or Phantom Rush. Unlike Dances or Ninjutsus, you'd still execute the skills during your Blitz period rather than just doing some other animation.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

As for something else Perfect Balance could be: Blitzes. I said this during the 90 page Monk Needs a Rework thread, but Perfect Balance could be used to tie the Form Based combos into the Blitz System. You activate Perfect Balance and will be able to do a short string of Weaponskills in an order that would correspond to a given sequence of Opo Opo, Coeurl, and Raptor skills. The correct sequence would allow you to use some sort of finishing move like Suplex, Dolphin Blow, Rising Phoenix, or Phantom Rush. Unlike Dances or Ninjutsus, you'd still execute the skills during your Blitz period rather than just doing some other animation.

Bootshine isn't satisfying mainly because of the animation, which is what I aimed to remedy. Missing it is punishing but I think that's fine with true north and ROE stacks. When you say you are spamming Bootshine that means consecutive bootshines, when it reality you are alternating between that and DK. You might think that's not much better but it's still not spamming. The comparisons to Inner Release become even flimsier when you consider that you actually spam Fell Cleave consecutively for that with little weaving, whereas on monk you are alternating between two moves with positional requirements on a faster GCD and with a lot more weaving. I do think that people sometimes forget about the positionals and faster GCD when talking about MNK being too simple of a rotation compared to other jobs.

I do agree that Tornado Kick shouldn't be an OCGD and should instead be a weaponskill you build up to. And your idea about SSS is also cool, although 15 positionals in a row is a little much. I think you can still have bootshine alongside your other ideas for those who enjoy leaden bootshines.

I would like to see Blitz implemented someday, it sounds pretty similar to Ninjutsu but you are correct in saying that it would tie into MNK's existing forms and whatnot. If that was implemented I would want to use it more than during PB somehow though.

[VentVanitas]

I do think that people sometimes forget about the positionals and faster GCD when talking about MNK being too simple of a rotation compared to other jobs.

Being fast and having positionals is the only thing MNK has, though. That alone can't make a rotation complex, it's how you're supposed to manage both of those things on top of existing job mechanics, which MNK currently does not have. At least not any that actually impact the rotation in a meaningful or interesting way.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Being fast and having positionals is the only thing MNK has, though. That alone can't make a rotation complex, it's how you're supposed to manage both of those things on top of existing job mechanics, which MNK currently does not have. At least not any that actually impact the rotation in a meaningful or interesting way.

I wasn't talking about the whole rotation here, just why PB isn't just literally spamming one move... *sigh*