How is monk after the rework?

[Shurrikhan]

You brought up T9 which is an ARR trial but I didn't say ARR, I was talking about Heavensward. For all that GL worked there as originally designed, the poor recovery in Heavensward was one of the biggest issues.

I brought up ARR because it was, capacity-wise, the worst state GL had ever been in. HW was objectively better, in that you had compensation for the ramp-up and a longer GL duration. And yet even in that worst of all states, it was a fully workable mechanic.

Even if Tornado Kick's potency was perfect for how much Monk would lose from having to ramp up over X number of GCDs, it would still become a source of unwanted potency for anyone trying to optimize on the most basic level of not wasting cooldowns.

Therefore, from a developer perspective at least, the fundamental design of Tornado Kick has always flawed.

Again, here, I have to on one hand concur and on another disagree.

While it's absolutely true that the devs here can freak out over usage they (sometimes very negligently) did not predict, we can also make your same claim towards any skill that adds potency (such that it becomes necessary to those who would optimize their play) and whose usage is somehow disliked by some set of players, claiming that it is therefore "fundamental[ly]... flawed". That does not seem tenable.

Yes, TK rotations were, at the time, problematic for high-ping and/or high-SkS Monks, but that had far more to do with implementation -- notably, the necessary triple weave. That problem is similar, to, say, to Flaming Arrow or Salted Earth being "fundamentally flawed" if either had a chance of reset and might therefore be used in close timing with itself, causing delays and difficult-to-balance uptime cost across varying pings because of its lack of queuing (as per all ground-targeted skills). Such would be a problem only until XIV allows for ground-targeting skills (and/or the first active line of macros, thus bypassing the issue through <t> or <mo> targeting) to be queued, and the game improved universally as a result. Granted, TK's fix would have a bit far simpler: ideally, allowing Tackles to animation-clip their related stances, and at minimum having GL apply on Wind Tackle itself.

I ultimately feel the same way. The thought that they can't make anymore (bad) Greased Lightning upkeep skills is just me trying to find a nugget of positivity in what I think was the wrong move.

Yeah, makes sense... I just... couldn't quite manage it. It's one of those forced-smile situations that'd just make me feel more at a loss / dead inside. A little too "arm can't itch if it dun' been amputated" for me.

[Sqwall]

You brought up T9 which is an ARR trial but I didn't say ARR, I was talking about Heavensward. For all that GL worked there as originally designed, the poor recovery in Heavensward was one of the biggest issues.

Heavensward was essentially where we saw the beginning of the current the trend of fight design. Where the developers liked to add multiple phases of the boss being untargetable for enough time for GL to drop with enough frequency that you just wouldn't have it. Things like Resin Bombs in A1S which were 90s apart meaning you'd have a slow start, Thordan Extreme which between the fight starting and PB coming back on cooldown had two transitions longer than PB's full duration, Robot Conga interlude 1 in A8S which came close enough to BJ phase beginning that PB was still on cooldown, Nidhogg Extreme where there a 20 second divebomb phase 30 seconds into the fight, and A11S where the two active time Maneuvers were so close to each other your only option was to pick which one you'd rather have a fast restart on. All of these mechanics are instances where Monk was forced to lose GL and wouldn't have PB coming back even with Form Shift. Worse, they are are all fairly long in duration to the point where the paltry potency of Tornado Kick and Meditation didn't do nearly enough to make up for the downtime since Monk's burst damage at the time was nonexistent.

Those are also just the examples I can think of off the top of my head where it was forced. There were many, many more throughout the expansion. That is also just how they build encounters now.

Ultimately though the solution has always just been to cut Perfect Balance's cooldown. Riddle of Earth was unnecessary. Anatman was unnecessary. Everything that they did other than that has just been superfluous. The Form Shift GL refresh might have been necessary if they had built additional incentives for upkeeping GL in the vein of Dragon Eyes or Polyglot, but that's all hypothetical.

The developers don't like players using any action for anything other than what they design it as. This has ultimately always been the shortfall of Monk and especially Tornado Kick. Even if Tornado Kick's potency was perfect for how much Monk would lose from having to ramp up over X number of GCDs, it would still become a source of unwanted potency for anyone trying to optimize on the most basic level of not wasting cooldowns.

Therefore, from a developer perspective at least, the fundamental design of Tornado Kick has always flawed. They should have either realigned their expectations for the skill so it was something akin to Heavensward Geirskogul and used rotationally while spending your buff resource, or they should have changed it.


I ultimately feel the same way. The thought that they can't make anymore (bad) Greased Lightning upkeep skills is just me trying to find a nugget of positivity in what I think was the wrong move.

Nail head....meet hammer.

[Prishax]

I didn´t play Monk before rework but as it is now i kinda enjoy it(80 and playing endgame content) and i found a good solution for everything except Atatman^^

Also Monk now definitely has build ups but i would agree that the strongest skills look kinda boring so as the True Strike and Lash Strike(propably not the right english name, i play in german) chain.

[Jirah]

I’ve been getting into MNK recently due to haveing probably the worst rep in the game second to BRD DRK and SCH. My experience is..

50s it’s ok, but with literally no gauge it feels like a lesser dragoon or a less fun SAM. Got some neat tricks like Mantra and perfect balance being stacked based is better than rushing in those Bootshines. Also getting dragon kick this late is abit confusing for new players that are used to bootshine starting it’s combo.

60s it’s lackluster, a issue some jobs have is their ties to their older incarnations are not completely severed and your left with dead weight, chakra gauge is essentially dead weight with no control in battle that isn’t a dps loss. Formless fist is another notable improvement but besides that generic ogcds which spice up MNK but Ogcds can only do so much

70s is where MNK shines, with a riddle and brotherhood you finally have a point of structure with the job due to the absence of internal release, its kinda needed. Besides a GL trait 70 and 80s are mostly the same. And the job feels exceedingly simple at times but also oddly enough is daunting due to the strict positionals and buff/debuff times. I found myself enjoying it more than I thought but does require practice and it has a lot of room to grow! As the MNK mains can attest

[Sqwall]

I’ve been getting into MNK recently due to haveing probably the worst rep in the game second to BRD DRK and SCH. My experience is..

50s it’s ok, but with literally no gauge it feels like a lesser dragoon or a less fun SAM. Got some neat tricks like Mantra and perfect balance being stacked based is better than rushing in those Bootshines. Also getting dragon kick this late is abit confusing for new players that are used to bootshine starting it’s combo.

60s it’s lackluster, a issue some jobs have is their ties to their older incarnations are not completely severed and your left with dead weight, chakra gauge is essentially dead weight with no control in battle that isn’t a dps loss. Formless fist is another notable improvement but besides that generic ogcds which spice up MNK but Ogcds can only do so much

70s is where MNK shines, with a riddle and brotherhood you finally have a point of structure with the job due to the absence of internal release, its kinda needed. Besides a GL trait 70 and 80s are mostly the same. And the job feels exceedingly simple at times but also oddly enough is daunting due to the strict positionals and buff/debuff times. I found myself enjoying it more than I thought but does require practice and it has a lot of room to grow! As the MNK mains can attest

You should have tried those 70's when they came out....it did NOT shine....until they fixed perfect balance and riddle of wind (removed). Plus you still had GL.

I'm sure it's way better now without GL

[Gobio]

At first I thought monk was about building up light the 7? charka and the 7? dark charka and then open all 14 and transform into super beings...
But it turns out, monk is, here is all the requirement in terms of combo and position and here is a set of buttons to skip them...

[Prishax]

At first I thought monk was about building up light the 7? charka and the 7? dark charka and then open all 14 and transform into super beings...
But it turns out, monk is, here is all the requirement in terms of combo and position and here is a set of buttons to skip them...

Not sure what you are talking about but so far i got it Monk DPS comes mostly from doing as many(builded up and not builded up) Six Sided Star and 320 potential Chakra combos as possible. And since i learned that and the the right combos for it i do pretty good as a monk and it´s dps. Positionals are rather unimportant compared to that and there is really much content where you can´t really utilize positionals nowadays but ofc it´s always good to land as many positionals as you can as an extra.

[wereotter]

Not sure what you are talking about but so far i got it Monk DPS comes mostly from doing as many(builded up and not builded up) Six Sided Star and 320 potential Chakra combos as possible. And since i learned that and the the right combos for it i do pretty good as a monk and it´s dps. Positionals are rather unimportant compared to that and there is really much content where you can´t really utilize positionals nowadays but ofc it´s always good to land as many positionals as you can as an extra.

What are you talking about? Positionals for a monk are VITAL. Every GCD in your single target rotation has one, and if you decide to just not use them, you're missing out on a lot. Not just the added potency, but also the guaranteed bootshine crit. Also Six Sided Star is garbage....there's almost no reason to ever use it, especially now that greased lightning is gone.

As far as the comment you're responding to, the Heavesnward and ARR stories are all about unlocking the 14 chakras, but it goes nowhere after that. You don't even get a callback to it with job mechanics as The Forbidden Charka attack only requires you to have opened up 5 chakras.

[Kolsykol]

Not sure what you are talking about but so far i got it Monk DPS comes mostly from doing as many(builded up and not builded up) Six Sided Star and 320 potential Chakra combos as possible. And since i learned that and the the right combos for it i do pretty good as a monk and it´s dps. Positionals are rather unimportant compared to that and there is really much content where you can´t really utilize positionals nowadays but ofc it´s always good to land as many positionals as you can as an extra.

How do you know that you're doing good dps?
Have you measured it?

Because you said a lot of wrong things tbh.
I mean feeling like you're doing good dps and actually doing it are two different things.

I'd suggest that you look up The Balance discord server, they have great guides.

[Prishax]

How do you know that you're doing good dps?
Have you measured it?

Because you said a lot of wrong things tbh.
I mean feeling like you're doing good dps and actually doing it are two different things.

I'd suggest that you look up The Balance discord server, they have great guides.

I check aggro meters and dps/damage meters from others in party^^ also how can it be wrong when what i sayed includes the strongest damage combos(i don´t even think people here have a clue what i am talking about since most people only talk about the rather unimportant stuff and never about how to utilize Six Sided Star and Chakra skills)... i personally think there is a reason some people don´t like Monk currently and this is simply because they don´t know how to play it. Ofc i already saw some guides(while im not so new to the game anymore), but they are really useless, playing like those is by far worse than what i do now.