How is monk after the rework?

[Amh_Wilzuun]

It is literally prep Leaden Fist, spend Leaden Fist, prep Leaden Fist, spend Leaden Fist, prep Leaden Fist...

What is that if not Leaden Fist spam?

I like how you said "prep leaden fist" instead of "dragon kick on a different positional" because it would mean you could say leaden fist more frequently and make it sound more spammy. Call me a trash player if you want, but alternating positionals for 6 GCDs straight with busy OCGDs in the mix can be mechanically challenging for some multiple encounters in this game.

[SpeckledBurd]

This sounds less satisfying and fun than the current iteration of the job where you work toward bootshine as the big damage attack. MNK already has a damage buff they maintain during their combos and another one to maintain sounds boring compared to the leaden fist buff. I also don’t see how it makes the monk more about the form based combos since there’s still gonna be an optional rotation to stick to, just without the satisfying bootshines. And if you don’t like perfect balance, suggest a better version of a burst phase. Saying it’s just spamming bootshine is still kinda disingenuous, but if you wanted to make it more complex to build towards a big attack that could be cool.

It's fundamentally the same feel and it opens up the opportunity for the big hit that you build some other way as Vent suggested rather than doubling down on Leaden Bootshines. Again, I frankly don't consider Leaden Bootshine to be satisfying as a big hit at all and the amount of potency tied up in its positional is so high that it's actually something of an issue since it's functionally the same as missing every single positional a Dragoon would have in both combos all tied up on one GCD. I'd rather see Tornado Kick be turned into a Weaponskill so we can actually see it's entire animation and have it be the final blow of a Riddle of Fire window, or properly executing 15 positionals consecutively giving you a resource that would cut the recast of Six Sided Star in half allowing it to be used rotationally. There's plenty of more interesting things that can be done with Monk's kit than leaning into Bootshine.

It's no more disingenuous to say that you spam Leaden Bootshine during Perfect Balance than it is to say you spam Fell Cleave in Inner Release. That's just what you do in it, to the point where it's optimal to allow Twin Snakes to fall off in the middle of Riddle of Fire to continue spamming it.

As for something else Perfect Balance could be: Blitzes. I said this during the 90 page Monk Needs a Rework thread, but Perfect Balance could be used to tie the Form Based combos into the Blitz System. You activate Perfect Balance and will be able to do a short string of Weaponskills in an order that would correspond to a given sequence of Opo Opo, Coeurl, and Raptor skills. The correct sequence would allow you to use some sort of finishing move like Suplex, Dolphin Blow, Rising Phoenix, or Phantom Rush. Unlike Dances or Ninjutsus, you'd still execute the skills during your Blitz period rather than just doing some other animation.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

As for something else Perfect Balance could be: Blitzes. I said this during the 90 page Monk Needs a Rework thread, but Perfect Balance could be used to tie the Form Based combos into the Blitz System. You activate Perfect Balance and will be able to do a short string of Weaponskills in an order that would correspond to a given sequence of Opo Opo, Coeurl, and Raptor skills. The correct sequence would allow you to use some sort of finishing move like Suplex, Dolphin Blow, Rising Phoenix, or Phantom Rush. Unlike Dances or Ninjutsus, you'd still execute the skills during your Blitz period rather than just doing some other animation.

Bootshine isn't satisfying mainly because of the animation, which is what I aimed to remedy. Missing it is punishing but I think that's fine with true north and ROE stacks. When you say you are spamming Bootshine that means consecutive bootshines, when it reality you are alternating between that and DK. You might think that's not much better but it's still not spamming. The comparisons to Inner Release become even flimsier when you consider that you actually spam Fell Cleave consecutively for that with little weaving, whereas on monk you are alternating between two moves with positional requirements on a faster GCD and with a lot more weaving. I do think that people sometimes forget about the positionals and faster GCD when talking about MNK being too simple of a rotation compared to other jobs.

I do agree that Tornado Kick shouldn't be an OCGD and should instead be a weaponskill you build up to. And your idea about SSS is also cool, although 15 positionals in a row is a little much. I think you can still have bootshine alongside your other ideas for those who enjoy leaden bootshines.

I would like to see Blitz implemented someday, it sounds pretty similar to Ninjutsu but you are correct in saying that it would tie into MNK's existing forms and whatnot. If that was implemented I would want to use it more than during PB somehow though.

[VentVanitas]

I do think that people sometimes forget about the positionals and faster GCD when talking about MNK being too simple of a rotation compared to other jobs.

Being fast and having positionals is the only thing MNK has, though. That alone can't make a rotation complex, it's how you're supposed to manage both of those things on top of existing job mechanics, which MNK currently does not have. At least not any that actually impact the rotation in a meaningful or interesting way.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Being fast and having positionals is the only thing MNK has, though. That alone can't make a rotation complex, it's how you're supposed to manage both of those things on top of existing job mechanics, which MNK currently does not have. At least not any that actually impact the rotation in a meaningful or interesting way.

I wasn't talking about the whole rotation here, just why PB isn't just literally spamming one move... *sigh*

[Morzy]

This sounds less satisfying and fun than the current iteration of the job where you work toward bootshine as the big damage attack. MNK already has a damage buff they maintain during their combos and another one to maintain sounds boring compared to the leaden fist buff. I also don’t see how it makes the monk more about the form based combos since there’s still gonna be an optional rotation to stick to, just without the satisfying bootshines. And if you don’t like perfect balance, suggest a better version of a burst phase. Saying it’s just spamming bootshine is still kinda disingenuous, but if you wanted to make it more complex to build towards a big attack that could be cool.

I think there are better things to strive for than Bootshine as the 'largest hit'. In 2.0 you had a fair number of buffs/debuffs to keep up;

• Dragon Kick: -10% INT/Blunt Resistance Debuff

• Touch of Death: DoT

• Demolish: Better DoT, strongest action.

• Twin Snakes: +10% Damage

• Greased Lightning: 3rd stack giving +30% damage

Monk was KNOWN for being the 'wind-up DPS'. The thrill of the job was starting out as the WORST damage dealer in the party and becoming the best so long as you kept up your buffs/debuffs, executed your positionals correctly, and at one point exercise good TP management.

There were more things to strive for than an upgraded Bootshine. Using an ability without all of your buffs/debuffs was a difference of 40% damage and now that 40% is 10%.

I am glad you find fun in the job. I have played it since 2014 and still love it, but if I'm being honest.. I play SCH more these days. :/ Monk was hard, and I loved that, but now it just feels like a DRG holding spearheads without a pole.


One last thing. Why does DRAGON KICK make your ONE punching ability stronger? How does THAT makes sense? DK is such an awesome animation, and reducing blunt resistance was a suitable consequence of a foot falling down upon your enemy.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Personally I don't really like keeping up a bunch of dots and debuffs but I see where you are coming from. I guess we just disagree because I gravitate towards "nu-monk" and want to build upon it while you miss your old job.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

You have 4 charges of positional-nullifying skills and, on the average not-spinning boss, need move less than a foot to go from flank to rear to flank again.

Yeah Monk would be unplayable without those positional-ignoring charges. We are getting farther and farther away from my original point. And I’d like to see a venn diagram of people saying that PB is easy spam and people who think that the bootshine positional is too punishing to miss. Like you have true north and ROE right? (Which I keep in easy to reach spots for a reason)

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah Monk would be unplayable without those positional-ignoring charges. We are getting farther and farther away from my original point. And I’d like to see a venn diagram of people saying that PB is easy spam and people who think that the bootshine positional is too punishing to miss. Like you have true north and ROE right? (Which I keep in easy to reach spots for a reason)

Why would you expect there not to be an overlap? Having a tarp with which to cover a problem doesn't make the problem not exist.

You generate enough positional-nullification duration to cover every GCD of Perfect Balance every time. It is therefore easy to utilize optimally.

That still doesn't mean that Leaden Fist, by being a problem only through factors outside the player's control and over so narrow a span that it cannot meaningfully be compensated for except via a please-remove-my-core-gameplay button, doesn't significantly reduce player agency or add a seemingly arbitrary or chance-based factor to their performance far beyond what other jobs face.

Perfect Balance is easy to optimize. Leaden Fist is problematic. The two are not mutually exclusive.