FFXIV: Limited Job and why it doesn't work

[ReiMakoto]

Y'all people arguing for BLU to become normal are missing the entire point of BLU. They could standardize it for regular play, yes, but they already said years ago that they would not be willing to sacrifice what is quintessential to BLU to do that. Of course, they could do that. Of course, it would make a lot of people happy. It's not what they want to do with the job though, due to the nature of this MMO.

Also, Aetherial Mimicry isn't a sign that it's being more standardized. There's a clearly more powerful than the others option there, and it's Healer Mimicry. Like, sure the DPS one has more DPS due to the Crit/Direct rate+ and the Tank one gives x4 to defenses as well as buffing cooldown related skill, but due to Diamondback and other things, Healer Mimicry is just way more potent than the other two options. It's a skill that was added to give BLU more power overall without basically giving it god mode. Imagine if all three could be active at once.

It's best like it is now, living up to how it works in all other Final Fantasies, with its class fantasy and lore intact, not breaking the game in anyway(though it did flirt with it during Yokai) while being an enormous amount of fun with a ginormous skill ceiling. You normalize it, you kill it. You're just asking for BLU flavored caster. That's it. You're not asking for actual BLU. And that's a dreadfully dull thing to ask for.

This is a load of flowery insubstantial rubbish. Asking for BLUs current rotation to be ported over to usable form in normal content doesnt take anything away from anyone. + this appeal to identity and "staying true to other games" doesnt even track, xiv blu is only similar to xi blu, other than that its very different from its other incarnations.

[TeraTyrantShadic]

snip #92

They already have standardized it. Look at it, we have group play Blue Mages. Evidenced with Blue Mage Log and Blue Mage Savage. 2 Tanks, 2 Healers and 4 DPS. They don't need to sacrifice anything at all other than rebalancing it and removal or adjustment of certain skills. The selection of spells can stay, as this is a trait of Blue Mage. All 3 roles being playable is not the key feature of Blue Mage. Learning moves from monster is the key feature. Before FFXI or FFXIV Blue Mage can do just about anything and really the holy trinity (Tank, Heal, DPS) is there just in a subtle way in all of the single player games.

Solo Content has no terms of OP especially in FFXIV. The discussion is about group play Blue Mage, not solo play Blue Mage. Yes, in solo play it can be 'OP', but in group play you have to decide a role. Cause DPS as a BLU healer can be done, but it will become a lot harder without the DPS mimicry composition. Healer mimicry is not that OP, but it can still make a DPS check with it as it has a lot of OGCD and with that it is all dependent on the player's skill sets for their Blue Mage.

Fun is a subjective term. As for normalizing it, I have already stated before. What they have now is a great start for it to become a normal job. Adding a Job gauge can add a new excitement to it, plus you'll still have everything it has. With a high skill ceiling just makes it all the more reason for players who know what they're doing in savage to play with the job as a normal one at that. However, I do want to point out, you really don't need a high skill level to get behind the wheel of Blue Mage. In savage, the skill ceiling is how well you memorize the mechanics and what to do in that situation with the job you have chosen. There is none for casual content and below. I won't even count Masked Carnival as anyone can achieve the titles from it. From the bigger picture your skill ceiling is how well you memorize your rotation as any job and how you can deal optimized damage while dodging and performing the mechanics during an encounter. The performance is based on you, not your job. You, the player. You want to be in that high skill ceiling? Then work for it and earn it, the jobs are there to provide you the tools need to reach peak performance, but only you can truly reach it if you learn your job in and out and overcome your weaknesses. Like Yoshida has made it clear every job is viable, even in ultimate. Making the same mistakes? That is not the job's fault, it is you and you alone unless you team member somehow messed up with the mechanics. Then it is their fault, but why point out the faults or mistakes when you can address it and learn from it as a team. That is the other skill ceiling, trust between you and your party members or static. If you truly want to reach peak performance then seek out the impossible and work together as a team. Like the video example I have shown in my video with the current tier raid. They can fully mitigate the damage because teamwork. Anything is possible and any job can be used to achieve such a feat.

Normalize it, we will still have the key features of it and with a job gauge added. I am not asking for a BLU flavored caster nor is anyone. People are asking for a playable Blue Mage class and what we have now can be made into a normal job while keeping what it has.

[Raikai]

I'm going to watch the video, as it seems well put together...

As of now, however, I actually enjoy BLU for what it is. I just wish we had two points looked at:

1) More reasons to keep running their "endgame" content. I really don't need Allied Seals anymore, and I've got everything a Blue Mage has to offer sans the Morbol mount, because that depends on a set of logistics on a much larger scale (finding a proper static). Maybe add very expensive things on the vendor, or even better, Revelation tomes for the daily log completion. Enabling deep dungeons for solo BLU with their own achievements and scoreboard is also another big plus because it's a place where you can effectively run indefinitely due to the random nature of the rewards there.

2) Better realized tank and healing roles. They have more tools now, but still lack a lot of refinement that the DPS aspect has. Tank Mimicry should make the job scale with tank stats, and make the mitigators insta-cast. Healers need oGCD healing spells to complement their kits too.

[Auryan]

Two questions:
1) But why?
Why does BLU have to be more than what it is designed to be (side content)?
The reasons you give for why they would entertain the idea are generally vague ("make the game better", "save resources"), self-serving (content you personally want over things you don't like) or appeals to nostalgia and emotions ("traditional job", FF history, "it's my favorite from the series!"). Going from your thesis it sounds like you have a very emotional attachment to the job concept or more of an obsessive hatred for the limited job idea. And while I sympathize with the nostalgia/emotional angle to an extent, none of these give me a good reason why SE has to further invest in something they clearly don't want or need.

2) Why change BLU when simply adding a standard caster job would accomplish the same thing?
Let's ignore the reality that they plan and allocate resources to content/expansions years in advance and have at the very least weapon ideas for future jobs (potentially caster) that could fill any gap. Why not simply add a caster for the 4th spot at a future date and keep BLU as they intended? Why can't Geomancer or Green Mage fill the same niche as a neutered BLU would?

I think I've asked this before, but can't remember getting an answer that didn't involve some sort of special pleading or downplaying the difficulty of balancing jobs and content.

[Mariel_Crystallie]

Two questions:
1) But why?
Why does BLU have to be more than what it is designed to be (side content)?
The reasons you give for why they would entertain the idea are generally vague ("make the game better", "save resources"), self-serving (content you personally want over things you don't like) or appeals to nostalgia and emotions ("traditional job", FF history, "it's my favorite from the series!"). Going from your thesis it sounds like you have a very emotional attachment to the job concept or more of an obsessive hatred for the limited job idea. And while I sympathize with the nostalgia/emotional angle to an extent, none of these give me a good reason why SE has to further invest in something they clearly don't want or need.

2) Why change BLU when simply adding a standard caster job would accomplish the same thing?
Let's ignore the reality that they plan and allocate resources to content/expansions years in advance and have at the very least weapon ideas for future jobs (potentially caster) that could fill any gap. Why not simply add a caster for the 4th spot at a future date and keep BLU as they intended? Why can't Geomancer or Green Mage fill the same niche as a neutered BLU would?

I think I've asked this before, but can't remember getting an answer that didn't involve some sort of special pleading or downplaying the difficulty of balancing jobs and content.

Helping Answer this question :

1. The reason why BLU should have more than designed to be , because right now BLU as "Side Content" have really small attention to the devs team and it's keep getting worse , while having your favorite job getting small portion while it's supposedly got big update (lvl 70) it's really sad. As for now all I can see being a "Limited Job" is the only way to abusing some old content while the current content for them is getting super small portion of it ( lvl 70 ).

2. We already have the resource for BLU and they don't need to make it from scratch again for other job , another reason why it's easier to make BLU as normal job instead making a new one. Tho I won't hate it if Geo / Green Mage become a job, the more the merrier.

[Auryan]

Helping Answer this question :

1. The reason why BLU should have more than designed to be , because right now BLU as "Side Content" have really small attention to the devs team and it's keep getting worse , while having your favorite job getting small portion while it's supposedly got big update (lvl 70) it's really sad. As for now all I can see being a "Limited Job" is the only way to abusing some old content while the current content for them is getting super small portion of it ( lvl 70 ).

2. We already have the resource for BLU and they don't need to make it from scratch again for other job , another reason why it's easier to make BLU as normal job instead making a new one. Tho I won't hate it if Geo / Green Mage become a job, the more the merrier.

1) Being treated like side content could be because BLU is side content? As I said earlier, mentioning that the job concept being your favorite is emotional and relatable, but not convincing. At least not persuasive enough for me to think it being a good reason for SE to invest more time and resource into what they consider as side content.

You could however say that giving BLU more access to content like Eureka/PoTD/HoH, more unique achievements and goals, Masked Carnival stages, etc. are all things they should do. And I would be in favor of, but that's not what a lot of people here are asking for. They want to make BLU into something it isn't: a standard job along with the rest. Not just that, they want it to keep the current BLU for old content, carve out all of the interesting bits and plop it with the rest and call it a day. Having your cake and eating it too kind of deal.

2) That's not how they design jobs though. Even if going with the hypothetical that after 6.1.5 they raise BLU to 80 and then think it's no longer worthwhile to keep investing in the idea, they have at that point already sketched out ideas for potential jobs for the next expansion. What if they already have allocated resources to another caster or other roles? I seriously doubt they would bump one out just for an overhauled blue mage.

The more likely route they'd take in that scenario is to not update it after a certain point. Content no longer getting updated has precedence in the game. Look at anything chocobo-related, Verminion, leves, Squadron, etc. They can indirectly keep it alive with more Wonderous tales/Moogle Treasure hunt-style content that encourages running older content, but that'd be it.

EDIT: typos

[Mariel_Crystallie]

1) You could however say that giving BLU more access to content like Eureka/PoTD/HoH, more unique achievements and goals, Masked Carnival stages, etc. are all things they should do. And I would be in favor of, but that's not what a lot of people here are asking for. They want to make BLU into something it isn't: a standard job along with the rest. Not just that, they want it to keep the current BLU for old content, carve out all of the interesting bits and plop it with the rest and call it a day. Having your cake and eating it too kind of deal.

2) That's not how they design jobs though. Even if going with the hypothetical that after 6.1.5 they raise BLU to 80 and then think it's no longer worthwhile to keep investing in the idea, they have at that point already sketched out ideas for potential jobs for the next expansion. What if they already have allocated resources to another caster or other roles? I seriously doubt they would bump one out just for an overhauled blue mage.

The more likely route they'd take in that scenario is to not update it after a certain point. Content no longer getting updated has precedence in the game. Look at anything chocobo-related, Verminion, leves, Squadron, etc. They can indirectly keep it alive with more Wonderous tales/Moogle Treasure hunt-style content that encourages running older content, but that'd be it.

1. That's what I'm asking for since the beginning , they really almost no care with BLU despite they having a new level cap update which why I say they keep getting lazier for this type of "Side Content". If they really gonna treat the "Limited Job" this way I prefer they not even make another one , because it will only wasting resource that you can use to work with something else instead making a half-baked job that only abusing old content like now.

2. Well we don't know exactly how they create a new job , even Sage come up from scratch while they thinking about Alchemist as healer before lol. well again BLU already have all the resource they need in game , only need the rebalance.

[Auryan]

1. That's what I'm asking for since the beginning , they really almost no care with BLU despite they having a new level cap update which why I say they keep getting lazier for this type of "Side Content". If they really gonna treat the "Limited Job" this way I prefer they not even make another one , because it will only wasting resource that you can use to work with something else instead making a half-baked job that only abusing old content like now.

2. Well we don't know exactly how they create a new job , even Sage come up from scratch while they thinking about Alchemist as healer before lol. well again BLU already have all the resource they need in game , only need the rebalance.

1) To be fair, it's not just what you're asking. You want BLU to have more access to content and be a standard job. You're statements on this very thread show that. Even if BLU was able to do deep dungeons and Eureka (and eventually Bozja), I'm pretty sure you'd still call that "lazy" and "half-baked." Mostly because it's the fact that BLU is barred from max level content being the actual issue.

They care for the content as much as they would any other minor side content. And I think that's where most of your disappointment stems from: reality vs. expectations. BLU is side content more comparable to Ocean Fishing and Gold Saucer-related activities and less to more major side content like Eureka/Bozja and Ishgardian Restoration. And seeing as you have a liking to the job, I can see why you would be let down.

2) Yoshi P has actually been pretty forthcoming in explaining how they create jobs. Here's a link to an interview that lists the step they take to add new ones to the game: https://www.aetherflowmedia.com/inte...-with-yoshi-p/

That's beside the point though, the important thing to know is the planning for new jobs are made years in advance, with resource allocation for new jobs already set. And scrapping a piece of side content and then stitching the mangled remains and calling it a standard job doesn't fall under the category of well-planned. You could call it a rebalance, I'd call it a mess. To make BLU into what you want it to be would require a very significant overhaul and design shift. It's much easier to play armchair game designer than it is being an actual game designer. I think we fall into that trap at one point or another.

[Shurrikhan]

1) But why?
Why does BLU have to be more than what it is designed to be (side content)?

Because it is already more than side-content, at the expense of any group content that would otherwise be done by normal jobs (but will not be, because BLU cheese largely pushes them out).

2) Why change BLU when simply adding a standard caster job would accomplish the same thing?

Because:

1. The present circumstance is problematic in terms of content expectations/difficulty (see the old world/content portions of current relic grind).
   
   
2. The present circumstance denies BLU any meaningful or interesting rotation or similarly core elements of gameplay generally expected of combat in any decent MMORPG, and allows the devs to excuse this lack of quality as a necessary cost of having further job content when that cost is not at all necessary.
   
   
3. A standard caster job that is not BLU would obviously neither be the best fit for BLU's theme nor excuse the development resources already expended for BLU's skill acquisition, no part of which is mutually exclusive with its having a complete and compelling kit at a given level or its being applicable in/to a given role; such merely requires actually putting some thought into the matchmaking systems themselves.
   
   
4. Making BLU more than a mere joke creates certain precedents towards versatility, player choice, and job interactions or job-specific content that could be beneficial for the game.

To be clear as to my own position:

Allowing BLU to do normal content in a roughly normal manner (e.g., not only via premades, not only at least a patch after everyone else, though perhaps at a variably slightly higher item level requirement) does not require it to lose its unique skill acquisition system, its multi-role functionality, or its above-average pool of skills. It requires only...

1. that BLU be balanced, ideally at just under typical (especially, role-specific) performance of fixed-role jobs, though with some ultimately subtle unique affordances that might make a dungeon run slightly faster or push a particular phase if, for example, one's co-healer can make up the difference;
2. that BLU retain limits on how many of those skills can actually be slotted at a given time;
3. that matchmaking have additional, fitting requirements of BLUs to ensure that they can, in fact, meet the requirements of their chosen role -- in some cases requiring a higher item level to the degree that they would sim short for mechanics specific to a given dungeon or span of dungeons;
4. and, ideally, that there be a small window of time granted upon entry to instanced to further swap skills about, though barring the removal of the minimum number of role-related skills (more strict for tanking or healing than DPS).

In such a case, the delays consequent to their unique skill acquisition system is just due balance for their being to fill any role. The additional cognitive requirements made of them through their building different skill "decks", likewise, is due compensation for their unique versatility. I'd offer, though, that their chances of acquiring a skill classified into a certain role should vary Armory Bonus for that same role.

The above requirements are not easily met, but they can be met, and the goal is, imo, worthwhile, not just for BLU's own benefit but for what it would prototype for the larger game.

[AngelCheese77]

A good start IMO would be allowing us to use BLU with our Squadrons. I aleady have come to terms on being unable to get any of the skills from the extremely hard dungeons, so I won’t be the best BLU out there