Leveling DoH: Firmament vs. other

[Jojoya]

[Note: this information is current as of the time I am posting it. If you're reading this after the release of Endwalker, it may no longer be accurate depending on what changes SE implements.]

Right now, the general consensus in the player base is that leveling DoH via the Firmament is the best way to go. Here are some reasons why it's not.

Recipe difficulty is substantially higher than other recipes of the same level without similar increase to XP earned. Let's look at level 60 recipes as an example.

Firmament recipe - 956 Progress, 15702 Quality, 60 Durability.
Min XP reward is 1.28 million for 300- 849 rating. Mid tier XP is 1.42 million for 850-1319 rating. Max tier XP is 1.77 million for 1320+ rating.

House of Splendors recipe - 956 Progress, 7851 Quality, 70 Durability.
Min XP reward is 1.27 million for 400-549 rating. Mid tier XP is 1.4 million for 550-709 rating. Max tier XP is 1.53 million for 710+ rating (note this max rating is lower than what's required for Firmament's mid tier ).

Typical recipe for leve - 1116 Progress, 8377 Quality, 80 Durability.
XP rewards will vary by leve but average would be around 1.3 million for NQ, with XP doubled if you turn in an HQ item. You're free to only repeat the leve that rewards the greatest amount of XP for that level if you want.

The increased Durability and lower max Quality on the Splendors and leve items makes it easier to craft those items to what's needed for their max rewards than it is to craft the Firmament items to the mid tier rating (which will reward less XP than max on the others). Fewer steps is more items turned in faster, and so more XP earned faster.

Firmament offers no way to get DoH gear upgrades that you will need to keep up with increasing recipe difficulty as you level higher.

House of Splendors will reward Yellow Crafter's Scrip in addition to the XP that can be used to buy gear for levels 58, 60, 65, and 70.

Leves will reward gil in addition to the XP (and shards/crystal/crafting materials) that can be used to buy gear from the MB or NPC vendors

Class quests will usually provide either primary or secondary tool appropriate to the quest level plus a second piece of gear in addition to XP.

Crafting your own gear is an option if you have the right classes leveled high enough but it can be difficult to keep everything about the same level while leveling. Usually you'll be forced to rely on the MB or a vendor to get most of your gear.

Firmament offers no way to obtain Master Recipe books.
One of the big draws to crafting is the ability to make your own gear and housing items, many recipes only being learned through the Master Recipe books. The level 60 and 70 books can only be purchased with Yellow Crafter's Scrip (level 50 books are obtained in Mor Dhona by crafting specific starred recipes as HQ items). The Master 3 books also contain the recipes for the items needed for most of the level 60 and a few of the level 58 class quests (though you can always buy the items off the MB at massively inflated prices as other players take advantage of those who can't buy the books).

There isn't really a good way to earn gil by leveling DoH in the Firmament.
How are you going to pay for the materials needed to level if you haven't already leveled up your gathering classes?

The items you make for Firmament can't be sold to other players. You can buy vanity items with the Skybuilders scrip you earn to sell on the MB but most players who are leveling would prefer to buy those items for their own use. The amount of Skybuilders scrip earned from the leveling recipes is fairly small compared to item cost. It's going to take quite a while to get enough scrip to buy that mount you want.

Items crafted from normal recipes may reward less XP but you get the additional benefit of being able to sell to other players to earn gil to use as you want, including buying gear upgrades or materials as you level.

Overall, you're getting less out of leveling via the Firmament than you would be getting by combining the other ways of earning XP.
A lot of players leveling via Firmament ignore the class quests until after they reach level cap, which is crazy. Class quests are worth almost the same XP needed to level up at the quest's level in addition to rewarding gear and shards/crystals.

As an example, it takes 9,593,000 XP to level from 68-69. Doing the level 68 class quest rewards 9,578,250 XP, a choice of Grade 5 materia, 250 crystals (type depends on what the class uses) and a secondary tool. You're also going to get additional XP crafting the items needed for the class quests. There's 18 class quests that reward significant amounts of XP. That's 18 levels you had to work harder than you need to because you skipped doing them.

If you hold off on doing them until you reach max level, all that XP goes to waste not to mention you've delayed access to Manipulation (level 65 quest reward), which makes a big difference on higher level recipes.

Grand Company Supply missions are worth 1-3 levels each up until about level 65 when XP earned starts to drop compared to XP needed to for next level. That's a nice once a day boost for crafting a single item if you take advantage of it

Leve XP tends to be much better per item turned in than the Firmament Collectables (CUL and to a lesser degree ALC can be exceptions. You are limited by the number of allowances you've accumulated so use them sparingly until you reach level 71 when you will no longer have regular class quests for XP and the supply mission rewards are a smaller percentage of XP needed to level.

House of Splendors XP is on par with or slightly better than what you can realistically expect to get from Firmament not to mention you'll be earning yellow scrip to buy leveling gear and other items used in crafting. You will need to pick up a one time quest in Ishgard once you reach 50 on any DoH class to unlock House of Splendors in Mor Dhona and the ARR city states (does not need to be repeated for every class), then do brief quests to unlock each Splendors location and its related categories (won't have access to the level 70 options at the Limsa Scrip Exchange unless you've unlocked the Rhalgr's Reach Splendors as an example).

The Crystalline Mean quests are available once you reach level 70. The drawback is that they are one time and shared between 2-3 DoH classes but it's still very good XP and rewards a nice amount of yellow scrip for the relatively small effort each quest requires. Again, easy XP that you shouldn't let go to waste while leveling.

The crafting beast tribe quests offer good XP (will scale to your class level up to the level cap for the expansion where they were introduced so you'll usually get a half a level per set of dailies) and supply the materials you need so they can also be worth doing. Their big drawback is they require a fair number of zone side quests to be completed on a DoW/DoM job before they can be unlocked and they're only viable for leveling during the levels introduced in their expansion. Unless you want their rewards (like class quests, why let that XP go to waste?), I wouldn't go out of the way to use them for leveling.

Could The Firmament still be the best way for someone to level DoH?
Depending on their personal situation, yes. The Firmament isn't a bad way to level, it's just not the best overall.

If someone isn't interested in moving into mainstream crafting and just wants to obtain the Skybuilders Scrip items, then leveling in the Firmament makes sense since they will earn scrip as they go.

If you really hate moving around to different locations to turn items in, Firmament may be better because you'll only have to travel between it and a marketboard to get more materials when you run out (though the same can be said of House of Splendors once you have it unlocked at 50).

The Firmament is also good for players that find themselves constantly struggling with inventory space since there is a very small number of different materials to have on hand compared to normal crafting.

I would recommend that everyone leveling DoH use level 40 Firmament recipes for levels 50-52 even if I don't recommend it at other levels. Recipe difficulty takes a bizarre jump as you move from ARR into HW content. DoH gear from the original level 50 end game is not cheap to buy or easy to make, and the level 51 crafting gear doesn't quite compensate adequately for the increased recipe difficulty leading to frustration. The level 53 gear in line with what it needs to be for crafting at that level so that's a good time to switch back to other methods.

Please feel free to share your own leveling experiences and recommendations for others to who are looking to level crafting and gathering before Endwalker's release.

This is also a bit of an eyesore because of the length. Suggestions of ways to improve formatting are welcome.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

I could be wrong. But I thought Manip is no longer locked behind the lvl 65 class quest?

[Plastics]

Recipe difficulty is substantially higher than other recipes of the same level without similar increase to XP earned. Let's look at level 60 recipes as an example.

It's very easy to hit the 3rd milestone in Ishgard crafts, and the mats tend to be significantly cheaper. You're also cherry picking here, I recall doing a breakdown where others are offer a significantly better exp to time ratio. The optimal way to level through Ishgard isn't just "craft the highest craft you can".

Firmament offers no way to get DoH gear upgrades that you will need to keep up with increasing recipe difficulty as you level higher.

Nor does Rowena. Scrip gear is bad in general, the correct way to level with Ishgard is all at once and then stop to gear up, with melds. It doesn't take that long, and with a guide you don't really need to figure out anything. You can also sell items from the tokens to pay for gear, mats, etc and yellows typically convert poorly. Unfortunately fetes have nerfed this a bit.

Leves will reward gil in addition to the XP (and shards/crystal/crafting materials) that can be used to buy gear from the MB or NPC vendors

Class quests will usually provide either primary or secondary tool appropriate to the quest level plus a second piece of gear in addition to XP.

These aren't exclusive to one method or another. I would use leves to level from 71 or so to 80 because they're faster than Ishgard, so saving at least enough to do that would make sense. There are a few very good Rowena crafts here as well (specifically for cul/alc), and the facets which give a lot of exp. I forget the exact cutoff, but if you get to something like 67-68 from Ishgard, then do all your class quests, you're ready to spam leves to hit 80 once they're all done.

Firmament offers no way to obtain Master Recipe books.

You don't need the master books while you're leveling, and you can get yellow scrips far more efficiently at level 80.

There isn't really a good way to earn gil by leveling DoH in the Firmament.
How are you going to pay for the materials needed to level if you haven't already leveled up your gathering classes?

You don't need much gil to level in Ishgard; it's quite a bit more time intensive or gil intensive to level through normal materials.

[Jojoya]

It's very easy to hit the 3rd milestone in Ishgard crafts, and the mats tend to be significantly cheaper. You're also cherry picking here, I recall doing a breakdown where others are offer a significantly better exp to time ratio. The optimal way to level through Ishgard isn't just "craft the highest craft you can".

It's only easy if you have better than the leveling gear the typical player leveling crafting will have. Not every player can afford to spend 75k gil per HQ piece of gear from the MB. Most will be relying on vendors for NQ gear because what used to be a fairly large supply of NQ gear from quest rewards showing up cheap on the MB has disappeared.

As for material costs, they're only cheaper for the level 20/40 recipes (I'll go more into that below).

Nor does Rowena. Scrip gear is bad in general, the correct way to level with Ishgard is all at once and then stop to gear up, with melds. It doesn't take that long, and with a guide you don't really need to figure out anything. You can also sell items from the tokens to pay for gear, mats, etc and yellows typically convert poorly. Unfortunately fetes have nerfed this a bit.

Scrip gear works fine for leveling, not to mention the player is again earning XP as they earn the scrip. I wouldn't go full scrip for level 60 since there is no shared left side gear except belt but certainly the tools and accessories are worth getting. It's more cost effective than paying out of pocket for gear then paying out of pocket for recipe materials since you only have to pay out of pocket for the recipe materials.

Someone who is using level 20 gear to get all the way to 80 via Firmament is going to be at it a lot longer than someone who stops to get gear along the way.

Have you paid attention to how much Skybuilder Scrip is earned as you level? The amounts are small compared to item cost and the MB has been flooded with the majority of those items, driving prices down. It is not a good way to earn scrip to make gil until you hit 80.

You don't need the master books while you're leveling, and you can get yellow scrips far more efficiently at level 80.

The same can be said of Skybuilder scrip. It makes more sense to have your leveling serve a double purpose. If you're going to need the yellow scrip later, may as well earn it while you level.

While the Master books aren't technically needed while leveling, some players want access as soon as possible for the primal weapon and housing item recipes they contain. How disappointed my friends were to find they didn't automatically learn those recipes, and what they needed to do to get them would have also earned them as much if not more XP.

You don't need much gil to level in Ishgard; it's quite a bit more time intensive or gil intensive to level through normal materials.

That's no longer true across the board. Normal materials have dropped down significantly in price due to changes this expansion. Firmament material cost will generally be lower for the level 20 and 40 recipes. It takes a big jump when you hit the level 60/70 recipes.

Using the level 60 CRP recipes as an example and current Coeurl MB prices
Firmament -7500 gil
Splendors - 4500 gil
Leve (Beech Rod) - 3600 gil

There will be some variations based on which class you're leveling but from level 60 on, the Firmament recipes tend to be the most expensive if you are not gathering you own materials.

There are a lot of assumptions being made about leveling based on what things were like in the past. Few are bothering to take a look at what things are like now. The marketboard is not what it used to be. The belief that the Firmament is the better way to level has driven the prices of those materials up while the prices of materials for normal recipes have fallen down thanks to lower demand and desynthesis changes.

[Seleni]

I could be wrong. But I thought Manip is no longer locked behind the lvl 65 class quest?

It’s definite still locked/gated, if not through class quest then at least through MSQ. My level 80 crafter jobs have it greyed out (I haven’t finished the last bit of HW MSQ)

[Moomba33]

I recently started leveling culinarian on an alt for the purpose of replaying the crafting beast tribe quests (and then botanist to support cul). It honestly feels pretty crazy how much exp you get just from working on the class quests. Adding in the beast tribes and grand company turn ins to fill in gaps and I never felt the need to look into Ishgard crafting.

Gearing was the biggest hassle. It didn't feel worthwhile to invest in HQ gear since the levels were coming so fast so I made due with nq quest rewards and vendor stuff.

I found the old Artisan set that you can buy with GC seals helpful at level 50. The GCs also have exp manuals you can buy but I didn't bother since my main goal was the beast tribe quests and I out leveled them long before finishing their rep grinds.

My alt is currently a 65 cul still working on Moogle rep. And he hasn't even done any of the SB class quests get, just got a bunch of extra exp from doing Zhole custom deliveries for the scrip 60 accessories/belt/tools.

[Plastics]

It's only easy if you have better than the leveling gear the typical player leveling crafting will have

This is both irrelevant and false. We're talking about optimal, and a guide can easily fill in the knowledge to enable this.

As for material costs, they're only cheaper for the level 20/40 recipes (I'll go more into that below).

This is false. Almost every HW and SB collectable on my server costs 2-3x what a higher level Ishgard collectable costs to craft. Nobody farms in HW and SB, and there's low demand, so the prices are abysmal and have been for years.

Scrip gear works fine for leveling, not to mention the player is again earning XP as they earn the scrip.

There are only 2 times where scrip gear makes sense to get. When you hit 70, and when you hit 80. At all other times it's nonsensical. It's either completely unnecessary or a total waste of yellows.

Have you paid attention to how much Skybuilder Scrip is earned as you level?

I have yet to lose gil leveling a crafter. I'm usually 2-3 million ahead by the time I hit 80. I see this nonsense belief that you aren't making much gil or not to spend any gil to speed up the process, and I still don't understand where this is coming from. I didn't keep track of the rewards, but I started with far less than MSQ gives you and ended up with a lot of extra gil from doing things like selling these cosmetics.

It makes more sense to have your leveling serve a double purpose. If you're going to need the yellow scrip later, may as well earn it while you level.

No, the things you "need yellows" for actually require a reasonable grind or quite a few weeks of CDs to finish, and even if you level entirely using Rowena you won't be close. To test this theory, I didn't level one of my DoLs with leves and just used Rowena as people suggest. I was many, many, many hours off of having the books unlocked. It was also significantly slower than leves. So is Ishgard. By my calculation, it was much faster to level with leves, then farm yellows with 80 gear.

"dual purpose" isn't important, the overall efficiency is. I can trivially grind out 15000 yellows at 80, but it's going to take you how many hours of leveling with Rowena to do that? So trade the 30 minutes of time you lose by not getting yellows for a much faster leveling route.

There are a lot of assumptions being made about leveling based on what things were like in the past.

I'm not making any assumptions, I'm making observations. If you want an assumption, it's that Ishgard will continue to be better even in the next expansion. They added this content for people to level crafters quickly, and if nobody is doing it, it will stop serving that purpose, so there will be something to ensure it remains relevant.

[Jojoya]

snip

At no point have I said I was discussing optimal. The problem with optimal is that what is optimal for someone who plays 8 hours a day is not going to be optimal for someone who is playing 4 hours a week.

If you're going to keep calling things false, you should be providing your evidence to prove it false as opposed to just saying "it's what I've observed" or "a guide told me so".