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  1. #11
    Player
    Hikelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    37
    Character
    H' Ikelos
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Liam_Harper View Post
    Sadly we don't have Mythic+ dungeons.
    M+ is a horrifying, terrible system that (along with other terrible systems) murdered the WoW subcount from 14m to 2m.
    "Infinite" gear progression is a scam, and it brings with it a pyramid scheme-like environment where the people with the most gear get spots in raids and dungeons, and the people below a certain threshold simply hit a huge, arbitrary wall in their progression that is simply unnecessary.

    The problem with gear in FFXIV is not the length of its progression, it's:
    1) You are not allowed to use your gear anywhere outside of where you get the gear. Dungeons scale your gear down, PVP does not take gear into account, I do believe Bozja also scales your gear down. The only place where 530ilvl will help you, outside of the current raid wing, is either farming old EX Trials unsynced (unnecessary to be above 500 anyway) , and farming FATEs in the open world.
    2) Outside of Ultimate, gear above crafted is not needed at all, and won't make a big difference.
    3) Crafted gear is too cheap and powerful and negates progression entirely. World 1st Raiders simply go into a new savage tier with the crafted set on, and complete it in around 24h, which isn't to say everyone does that, but it does mean it is possible and that's a problem.

    In short, the problem boils down to the question "Why do you want the gear?" and currently, there is no reasonable answer to that question, other than "I want the dyeable gear for glamour".

    WoW's gear is exciting and relevant, NOT because you have a 1% chance of it Turboforging 100extra ilvl with a socket and a tertiary stat, but because that gear defines your gameplay for the rest of the time you're not raiding.
    It's relevant in PVP, open world, Open world pvp, dungeons, daily chores, etc.
    Essentially, it gives you a tangible return for the time and effort you invested, and "infinite" progression simply isn't a component that makes that formula work.

    Bit of a tangent, but a microcosm of this issue is Eureka VS Bozja.
    Eureka's leveling system gave you very very tangible feedback for your progression through it, while Bozja is the same from start to finish.
    Even the Baldesion Arsenal gear fed into this progression, it was memorable how the 2nd or 3rd time through it people who got a couple pieces of the set were finally able to see the mobs' level because they grew in power, while the Bozja gear is simply yet another skin for your character.
    (3)

  2. #12
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
    Posts
    4,418
    Character
    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    I'd gear at least one job in full i520, so that you can be a step ahead of the general crafted level 81 gear that quests will be handing to you next expansion. In general, the next expansions quest rewards will be 15 ilvls lower than the highest ilvl currently available. SE likes to stick to the trend, so far, so no harm in getting ready!
    Been here since 2.0 and always maxed out every job, this is generally the right answer. You have enough time from now to Endwalker release (Semptember-ish) to fully gear at least 2 job roles, maybe 3 to 520/530. Once EW releases, that gear will get you easily to lvl 85 or so without having to change any gear out.

    Meanwhile, while you're leveling those 2 or 3 jobs, the 520/530 gear will be buyable via poetics and you can continue to get gear for the next role. When you think about it there's only 7 sets of gear you need to obtain between the 18 jobs. Fending, Striking, Maiming, Scouting, Healing, Ranged Magic and Ranged Physical as the jobs share that gear between them.
    (1)
    Veteran healers don't care if we need to heal, but right now we don't. We want interesting things to do during the downtime other than a 30s dot and a single filler spell that hasn't changed from lvl 4 to lvl 90.
    Dead DPS do no DPS. Raised DPS do 25/50% lower DPS. Do the mechanics and don't stand in bad stuff.
    Other games expect basic competence, FFXIV is pleasantly surprised by it. Other games have toxic elitism. FFXIV has toxic casualism.[/LIST]

  3. #13
    Player
    CKNovel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    1,915
    Character
    Cassia Kaedhan
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikelos View Post
    The problem with gear in FFXIV is not the length of its progression, it's:
    1) You are not allowed to use your gear anywhere outside of where you get the gear. Dungeons scale your gear down, PVP does not take gear into account, I do believe Bozja also scales your gear down. The only place where 530ilvl will help you, outside of the current raid wing, is either farming old EX Trials unsynced (unnecessary to be above 500 anyway) , and farming FATEs in the open world.
    2) Outside of Ultimate, gear above crafted is not needed at all, and won't make a big difference.
    3) Crafted gear is too cheap and powerful and negates progression entirely. World 1st Raiders simply go into a new savage tier with the crafted set on, and complete it in around 24h, which isn't to say everyone does that, but it does mean it is possible and that's a problem.

    In short, the problem boils down to the question "Why do you want the gear?" and currently, there is no reasonable answer to that question, other than "I want the dyeable gear for glamour".
    Gearing helps in:
    -Any savages from this expansion to previous one.
    -Current and older EX trials, there's no Ilvl sync from Titania EX to Diamond EX.
    -Expert roulette, both dungeons in the roulette don't have ilvl sync.

    And as you mentionned... Fate.
    Gearing above average ilvl doesn't helps in:
    -Unreal trial (why.)
    -Ultimate, you can get 5 additionnal ilvl compared to when it was released but that's it.
    -Bozja, it is casual content and needs to set every players at the same level.
    -Pvp, it's already not popular, gear would make it less popular.
    -Older dungeon from 2 patches ago (5.3 and so on)

    Also your 3rd point, please remember that world first are not average players. They're the top of the cake that dedicate themselves to the game.
    If we were to find 8 people of exactly your level in their respective roles, I doubt they could clear savage with only crafted gear. It's possible, but it's much harder than you can imagine, more than 95% of the active player couldn't hope to achieve this.
    On top of that, first Alexander tier had a gear check and it simply artificially pushed back the world first.
    (4)

  4. #14
    Player
    GeminiReed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    506
    Character
    Alys Isshu
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 61
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikelos View Post
    1) You are not allowed to use your gear anywhere outside of where you get the gear. Dungeons scale your gear down, PVP does not take gear into account, ...
    Gear dependent PVP is a travesty. The only people I see adamant that it be a thing aren't all that interested in fair fights. The only times I've seen PvP gear "work" was when the gear/ungeared gap was so small the developer effort required would have been better spent elsewhere.
    (4)

  5. #15
    Player
    Karl0217's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    167
    Character
    Koh'a Ganajai
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    If previous expansions are any indication i530 gear won't be outclassed till the level 85 dungeon gear. A full set of i530 gear will get you half-way through the expansion.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player
    Iscah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    14,079
    Character
    Aurelie Moonsong
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl0217 View Post
    If previous expansions are any indication i530 gear won't be outclassed till the level 85 dungeon gear. A full set of i530 gear will get you half-way through the expansion.
    I don't feel like that's enough of a reason in itself to put the effort into gearing up now. It's just doing work now so you can save it later, and the later option is easier.

    If you're playing the game because you want to, and essentially getting revelation times as a byproduct of gameplay, of course you're going to spend them to gear up. But if you don't actually need it for high-level gameplay now, there's no need to put effort in just to earn the Cryptlurker gear when you'll be fine going into Endwalker in a mix of Paglth'an/Edenmete/Type-55/Crystarium gear and updating with free MSQ and dungeon gear as you go.

    There's very little in the Crypt sets that feels worth getting, glamour-wise, and I'd rather put my gameplay effort into other things.
    (1)

  7. #17
    Player
    kaynide's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,881
    Character
    Kris Goldenshield
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscah View Post
    I don't feel like that's enough of a reason in itself to put the effort into gearing up now. It's just doing work now so you can save it later, and the later option is easier.
    Pretty much this; Kinda eluded to above, but the easiest option by far is just getting gear in MSQ/Early NPC vendors to get the iLVL needed for the first dungeon. This game absolutely throws gear at the player, so gear should not be a worry.

    OP, your time would be better spent leveling an additional class tbh.
    (2)

  8. #18
    Player
    Sathona's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Etheirys
    Posts
    488
    Character
    Sathona Jun
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by GeminiReed View Post
    Gear dependent PVP is a travesty. The only people I see adamant that it be a thing aren't all that interested in fair fights. The only times I've seen PvP gear "work" was when the gear/ungeared gap was so small the developer effort required would have been better spent elsewhere.
    gear dependent pvp from my experience in several games all these years was to please awful players and/or whales, since that was the only way they could beat skilled players xD
    dumb and unnecessery system
    (1)

  9. #19
    Player
    Vahlnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Tent In the Middle of Nowhere
    Posts
    9,647
    Character
    Elan Centauri
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    I would probably buy a full set of crafted 510 gear at the very least. That should tide you over for now and provide you with access to just about everything outside of the higher end Extremes and Savage. Doing it that way means you can just proceed with the expansion's content without much to worry about. Buying some higher end pieces with Revelation tomestones isn't a bad idea though should you amass enough of them. With the latest Nier raid it's pretty easy to get 520 gear as well, provided it drops something you need.
    (1)
    Last edited by Vahlnir; 05-04-2021 at 10:23 AM.

  10. #20
    Player
    Jojoya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    9,091
    Character
    Jojoya Joya
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    The 5.5 dungeon has a minimum average ilvl requirement of 490 if you intend to progress in the MSQ. You'll want to get at least one job to that level. Beyond that, there's no rush to gear up unless you intend to participate in high end content.

    I wouldn't skip opportunities to gear up your primary job(s) more, though. Better gear helps you get combat content done that much quicker. I just wouldn't go out of the way to gear up fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hikelos View Post
    M+ is a horrifying, terrible system that (along with other terrible systems) murdered the WoW subcount from 14m to 2m.
    "Infinite" gear progression is a scam, and it brings with it a pyramid scheme-like environment where the people with the most gear get spots in raids and dungeons, and the people below a certain threshold simply hit a huge, arbitrary wall in their progression that is simply unnecessary.
    As a style of content, Mythic+ is fine for those players who are into speedrunning (which I'm not). The problem, as you point out, is the reward system being intertwined with the rest of the game. Keep the reward system independent so it doesn't affect the balance of the gear/reward system in the rest of the game and there would be no problem. SE can look at Save the Queen as a good example of a rewards system not upsetting balance outside of that content.

    To remove the gear drama, an ilvl sync could also be imposed so gear offers no advantage. You're still going to run into player insistence on meta comps but that's less of a problem here than in WoW since characters here can be every class so you don't have to switch characters like you would in WoW.
    (0)
    Last edited by Jojoya; 05-04-2021 at 11:26 AM.

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