Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Jijifli]

https://www.reddit.com/r/TalesFromDF/new/

I love that both of the new posts as of my commenting are both about healers that intentionally decide they don't wanna heal anymore. One because a tank pulled, and another for daring to suggest they use more than just cure 1 in level 73 content.

Don't worry tho none of them exist. This is all just a simulation.

[Saefinn]

The bolded part is why I'm disinclined to believe stuff like "you can get banned for telling someone to refresh their dots!". If SE did not want strangers to give advice on how to play they wouldn't have created the mentor system. Having the crown doesn't magically make you immune to any sort of punishment. It's not a get out of jail card.

I've seen some people say "I was only trying to help" when their idea of help was "omfg you need to stack not stand in China". Sure that's telling the person they need to stack, but it's far from being a polite way to put it. I've had to tell quite a few people to do basic things like turn on tank stance and I have managed to avoid punishment even when the player didn't take the advice/request well. You're not going to get in trouble with a GM for saying "please turn on tank stance" or "we need both dps to do aoe".

I often feel like this is the difference for sure and is my experience of it.

Heck, going on my handling customer complaints experience when I used to work complaints:
- Nice customer on the phone, they have a complaint about how any agent dealt with them, the customer had only sought service and weren't rude about it, but the agent was rude and unhelpful. And the situation is painted as to how they're reasonable and did nothing wrong, but the agent was probably having a bad day or something but is in the wrong.
- Then I listen back to the call and the customer is very rude and nasty.

Or the reverse of that, before I worked complaints:
- Customer calls up giving me and one of the engineers literal death threats.
- Customer later gets through to complaints after I cancelled their engineer visit (because, yes, I'm gonna send an engineer to your house you said you made death threats about), the person who took the call said they were sweet as anything, they listened back to the call and were shocked at the contrast.

I'd say "maybe it has made me jaded and that's just customer service Karens/Kyles", but then we see people with ERP venues post here after being moderated omitting the fact they're selling ERP when complaining their RP advertisements have ended up giving them strikes and it seems the same old story. I've seen complaint thread appear here before that were also like that.


When people want to complain about a situation, they omit anything that places them as the point of wrong doing or looking bad and the one on the receiving end is the bad guy and surprised Pikachu face that action was taken against them.

So when people report they've been wrongly moderated, whilst I accept the possibility, my default is almost always going to be "this is only one side of the story".

Oh please, if you have questions, ask in the chat
That the game is not available in your language? use a translator or join dozens of groups in your language about the game and look for a FC that supports you on your journey as many do.

Do you have any psychological or perhaps physical problems such as some kind of disability? TELL ME, I don't have to guess and I don't have to know that you have a problem, if you tell me perfect I understand you and I will support you as best I can.

A lot of disabilities tend to be sensitive topics and often not anybody's business either. Should people be telling the world they're disabled to avoid people calling them bad gamers? Especially, as let's face it, a lot of people aren't good about disabilities and can kinda be s***y about it?

And then we end up getting people who'll use the line without being disabled, then people will catch on and not believe people who really are...because that already happens in the real world, especially when it comes to psychological ones.

I just prefer people to just say if they're unsure of anything.

[LaughingBanana]

The bolded part is why I'm disinclined to believe stuff like "you can get banned for telling someone to refresh their dots!". If SE did not want strangers to give advice on how to play they wouldn't have created the mentor system. Having the crown doesn't magically make you immune to any sort of punishment. It's not a get out of jail card.

I've seen some people say "I was only trying to help" when their idea of help was "omfg you need to stack not stand in China". Sure that's telling the person they need to stack, but it's far from being a polite way to put it. I've had to tell quite a few people to do basic things like turn on tank stance and I have managed to avoid punishment even when the player didn't take the advice/request well. You're not going to get in trouble with a GM for saying "please turn on tank stance" or "we need both dps to do aoe".

Agreed. I find it hard to believe that people who are genuinely trying to help and do so respectfully is going to be banned for their trouble. What I tend to believe is people saying that because they just couldn't believe how lording their god-like skills condescendingly to people they think as degenerate losers are something that should be allowed.

I keep reading all these threads on how there are so MANY bad players... where? While I don't do savage/ultimate and rarely do EX, I have not once run into a BOT in a dungeon or raid that I know of, and rarely see someone super horrible at the job they choose to play. I'm on the Mos Eisley of Data Centers too, I don't even seem to run into really rude or toxic players either. Most runs tend to be fairly quiet, everyone saying hi, getting down to the business of running the dungeon/raid.. maybe someone saying oh hey, I'm looking for X piece of gear, if none of you need it, could you let me have it... then a thank you, or gg or something when it's done. If I've had an exceptionally bad time zigging when I should zag ::glowers at Red Girl and her inflorescence or however it's spelled:: I usually apologize to the healers before they leave. I've had some spectacularly bad times with dying especially in the nier raids, not once has anyone been nasty to me about it. So.. where is all this elitism/toxicity that everyone is so concerned about?

Reading this forum one would think that these people are infesting the entirety of FFXIV community, and yes, while they're there, people who are performing real badly, in my experience it is not as society-crumbling as many would lead you to believe. Certainly not to the point where people would obnoxiously wanting something silly as tiered DF or something ridiculous like that.

[Nayout]

A lot of disabilities tend to be sensitive topics and often not anybody's business either. Should people be telling the world they're disabled to avoid people calling them bad gamers? Especially, as let's face it, a lot of people aren't good about disabilities and can kinda be s***y about it?

And then we end up getting people who'll use the line without being disabled, then people will catch on and not believe people who really are...because that already happens in the real world, especially when it comes to psychological ones.

I just prefer people to just say if they're unsure of anything.

Well, you will have to arm yourself with the courage to say it or something because I have to know and not guess if you have a problem which makes you unable to play your role in a dungeon or you cannot respond to what they write to you.

I do not have to know your problems and if your performance in the dungeon prevents it from being done in an equitable way between 4 players I will kick you because it is not my work to be a fortune teller. That people would abuse in the future? Well unfortunate, I will worry when it happens.

[LariaKirin]

Why are your expectations of other players higher than the expectations of the game itself?

This is quite simple to navigate. Playing badly in Savage+ or being half afk in Extreme? Just kick them.

Anything below? You're already losing braincells by being in the so-called "expert" dungeons, why lose more by caring about what happens around you? Just turn your brain off, do the dungeon, get out.

This isn't going to change at this point.

[Penthea]

A lot of disabilities tend to be sensitive topics and often not anybody's business either. Should people be telling the world they're disabled to avoid people calling them bad gamers? Especially, as let's face it, a lot of people aren't good about disabilities and can kinda be s***y about it?

Well, you will have to arm yourself with the courage to say it or something because I have to know and not guess if you have a problem which makes you unable to play your role in a dungeon or you cannot respond to what they write to you.

Here is what has happened to disabled players I know when they said that their disability is why they made a mistake in an online game:

"You're only saying that because you want to get away with being bad"
"Stop making your problem my problem"
"I can see from the forbidden site that you have completed savage tiers, you're lying"
"It's really messed up that you're pretending to be disabled just so you can be lazy"
"You played fine yesterday, you're suddenly disabled today?"
/doesn't even say anything and just vote kicks you
/complain behind your back to your fc mates that you pretend to be disabled

I am disabled and if I make a mistake due to disability while I'm in a pug I say nothing about my physical condition. Not just because I know about and have seen some of the above, but also because I already deal with enough bad situations related to it in real life.

In real life I have been told that I'm not disabled enough to call myself disabled just because I can walk perfectly fine and my general body movement looks normal, which is hugely due to me avoiding activities that aggravate my condition. My tens machine, compression sleeves and splints are mostly hidden under my clothes, and I don't need to wear supports on my arms every day. I'm not the "typical" image of disability and I have endured a lot of judgmental crap because of it. I have been accused of purchasing arm and hand supports to make myself seem worse than I actually am. I'm not even allowed to have a good day with less pain because I get comments like "oh it's not as bad as you said it was".

I already have problems with my disability getting invalidated in real life when I can show people the things I need to wear to manage pain and boxes of prescription medication. There is NO WAY I'm going to be open about my disability after a mistake in an online game with random people when I can't even vaguely prove that what I'm saying is true. Doing that would land me in a situation in which I'm being accused of lying, and frankly I deal with it enough in real life. I play this game to have fun, not to defend the validity of my health issues.

If I make a mistake because my hand locked up at the wrong moment I just say "my bad sorry, I was too slow" and 99% of the time people are okay with it. It sucks that I have to be dishonest to protect myself from prejudice and accusations but it's better to do that than potentially stalling the instance because someone's incorrect ideas about disability cause an argument.

I don't need to arm myself with courage to say I'm disabled, which is evident in this post, I'm just painfully aware of what can happen when it becomes a topic during an activity.

I understand that not every random person is going to be meanspirited towards disabled people, but I don't know how a random person is going to react. So I lie and pretend I had a derp moment to have a quiet life.

And before anyone asks, yes I do avoid certain content or even the game as a whole on bad days when I have limited movement. And yes my raid team is aware of my disability and are okay with it.

[SturmChurro]

..

I genuinely don't think you'd be considered part of the problem that is being referenced in this thread. If you have a raid team and are able to contribute regardless of your disability, I think you are fine. Probably better than many players even playing at an adequate level, it's not the end of the world to mess up sometimes with or without a disability.

The people being referred to here, are players actually choosing to play badly. No aoe, won't tank properly, healers standing still doing nothing instead of dps, really generally refusing to use parts of their kit - and yes I have had those (others will call them out, they refuse), encourages other players to play at this level, etc. People are always like, "what's a few extra minutes"? It's not just a few, it's several. Many times doubling the length of dungeons.. Many times making it unbearable in raid content, even leading to wipes.

[Penthea]

I genuinely don't think you'd be considered part of the problem that is being referenced in this thread. If you have a raid team and are able to contribute regardless of your disability, I think you are fine. Probably better than many players even playing at an adequate level, it's not the end of the world to mess up sometimes with or without a disability.

My post was more about telling people why they shouldn't expect anyone to be open about their disability with random people in an online game rather than a defense for poor performance. Most people with disabilities experience some manner of prejudice in real life, and as we know online people tend to have a much looser filter when it comes to insensitive comments. When a person knows the kind of things people like me deal with irl, they're more understanding of why we're often quiet about having a disability when in a random group in an online game.

As for contributing to my raid team regardless of disability, I wish that was true. We have had wipes because my finger twitched or my hand locked up at a bad time. We have had to end some raids early or cancel them because I was in too much pain. There was a three week period at the start of the expansion in which I was unable to even play never mind raid. Our raids are only two hours long because of me. But the people I'm with are okay with all of this, we're not a competitive team. We just want to get our kills with some laughs along the way. I'm very lucky to have a team full of good people who are willing to put up with my limitations. Though the flip side is that when my disability doesn't get in the way my performance is typically more than enough to deal with savage so we can make up for lost time when I am doing okay.

The people being referred to here, are players actually choosing to play badly. No aoe, won't tank properly, healers standing still doing nothing instead of dps, really generally refusing to use parts of their kit - and yes I have had those (others will call them out, they refuse), encourages other players to play at this level, etc. People are always like, "what's a few extra minutes"? It's not just a few, it's several. Many times doubling the length of dungeons.. Many times making it unbearable in raid content, even leading to wipes.

Not by all though, some here assume playing badly = must be a leech. Some people have legitimately valid reasons for poor performance and some people's best is a very low bar. I hate it as well when I encounter someone who is performing very badly but my first reaction isn't "omg a leech". I reserve that opinion for when someone is clearly offended that they're expected to have performance that is adequate for the content they're doing. I found in DF that most people make silly mistakes they otherwise would not do or are unaware that they're even making them. While the latter is certainly a problem this does not qualify someone to be seen as knowingly having parasitic behaviour.

[ReynTime]

Did people not learn what reading between the lines, or implicity means while growing up? Or do they just like to pretend they're assuming people mean something else just so they can start an argument?
This seems to be a recurring problem with discussions in these forums.

[Tactical]

oh, wow, there was already low-key ableism going on in this thread even before this bit was brought up, but damn, we really out here doing it explicitly?
Y'all disappoint me.