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  1. #431
    Player
    SturmChurro's Avatar
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    Feb 2017
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    Gridania
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    7,073
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    Sturm Churro
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    Marilith
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    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Awha View Post
    Also in ToR especially in PvP everything was extremely transparent with the medal system and certain damage, healing, and protection bench marks people had a harder time hiding behind excuses or poor play. So unfortunately playing like [...] or being an [...] made was a public show case. Especially if you queue solo ranked that is thing what people consider toxic now was just normal back in the day. [...] toxic was not even used all that often if I recall.

    Though I get where you are coming from.
    A great thing for a game to have! It's too bad this game can't have that for PvE content. It's a great way to encourage players players to do better. It just would never work here, literally NEVER.

    Toxic was used back then, I know because, like I said earlier, my server (PoT5) was called the most toxic server NA. Also, the republican side definitely referred to Imperials that way. They did not appreciate being spawn camped leveling, or during events.
    (0)
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  2. #432
    Player KizuyaKatogami's Avatar
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    Feb 2021
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    Kizuya Katogami
    World
    Cerberus
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    Conjurer Lv 81
    Quote Originally Posted by Ammokkx View Post
    holy generalizing batman

    Not only is it that Anecdotal evidence =/= evidence of a larger trend, but saying 'younger generations cannot take a joke' is so ridiculous it's beyond compare. I haven't been out of high school for long, four years to count, and I can tell you for a fact ribbing was a constant during it. I'm not even a particularly social person, given my penchant for drowning myself in internet culture. If some antisocial nerd can shoot the shit with mates, then I'm sure the more social ones can as well.

    No, all that you people are seeing is confirmation bias. You(general you, not Dzian in particular) have this idea everyone around you just cannot take a joke. Therefor, you're going to blot out every time your friend takes one of your jokes and instead focus on when the stranger didn't take so kindly to your sense of humor.

    You know what is a fact? Everyone is different. That means a lot of different senses of humor too. That means that people are okay with certain kinds of ribbing, but not others... but one thing that's almost a constant is that you generally don't take shit from somebody you don't know. If you're going to be shorthanded and rude to a stranger, then I find it mightily unsurprising they'd respond to you in kind.

    Instead of assuming everyone you don't know just doesn't know how to talk to people, maybe, just maybe, you could do with taking a step back and evaluating your own behaviour for a change. I'm not telling you to change- I'm enough of a rude abrasive asshole myself to have no grounds on that front- but my god, stop blaming other people for your own shortcomings.

    Yes, there are massively sensitive people on the world. No, it's not a majority- you're just focusing on the really bad cases.

    If you think everyone's a snowflake, the world's gonna look awfully white to you.
    I think there’s a lot of evidence to really back it though. Looking back at the older mmo’s where people were never at all this sensitive. And just looking at the way people can actually take criticism in other mmo’s, this literally seems like the only one where people make it okay for other players not to know their job and repeatedly enable them over and over and try to defend every little thing. I personally try to assume the best in people(which can be really problematic) but its very difficult to do with the people in this game honestly. There’s actually been studies done though in regards to this generation and the effects that technological advancement has had on them and one of the outcomes is higher emotional stress ironically. Sure theres some people that can take a joke still for sure, but just looking at this entire thread there are a lot of people that meet the equivalent of exactly the kind of people being mentioned with this.
    (6)

  3. #433
    Player
    SturmChurro's Avatar
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    Gridania
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    Sturm Churro
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    Marilith
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    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami View Post
    I think there’s a lot of evidence to really back it though. Looking back at the older mmo’s where people were never at all this sensitive. And just looking at the way people can actually take criticism in other mmo’s, this literally seems like the only one where people make it okay for other players not to know their job and repeatedly enable them over and over and try to defend every little thing. I personally try to assume the best in people(which can be really problematic) but its very difficult to do with the people in this game honestly. There’s actually been studies done though in regards to this generation and the effects that technological advancement has had on them and one of the outcomes is higher emotional stress ironically. Sure theres some people that can take a joke still for sure, but just looking at this entire thread there are a lot of people that meet the equivalent of exactly the kind of people being mentioned with this.
    I'm gonna have to agree with Ammokkx. The concept is a pretty big generalization. To me, it's more of a shift in popular culture, and social media. I can probably make a pretty educated guess that the majority of this community is actually older than both myself and Ammokkxx. I don't believe it's limited to age.
    (3)
    Last edited by SturmChurro; 05-09-2021 at 11:11 PM.
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  4. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by SturmChurro View Post
    A great thing for a game to have! It's too bad this game can't have that for PvE content. It's a great way to encourage players players to do better. It just would never work here, literally NEVER.

    Toxic was used back then, I know because, like I said earlier, my server (PoT5) was called the most toxic server NA. Also, the republican side definitely referred to Imperials that way. They did not appreciate being spawn camped leveling, or during events.
    Not wrong, I guess by toxic generally from my experience when people spoke about other servers they were referred as cancerous though yeah same vain as toixc. Spoke with some friends and they remember toxic being thrown around I guess it just blanked on me cause people would always clap back and tell people to not play on a pvp server or do a pvp event.
    (1)

  5. #435
    Player KizuyaKatogami's Avatar
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    Kizuya Katogami
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    Cerberus
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    Conjurer Lv 81
    Quote Originally Posted by SturmChurro View Post
    I'm gonna have to agree with Ammokkx. The concept is a pretty big generalization. To me, it's more of a shift in popular culture, and social media. I can probably make a pretty educated guess that the majority of this community is actually older than both myself and Ammokkxx. I don't believe it's limited to age.
    Yeah, i can’t speak too much on it because i don’t have actual numbers i can bring up. I just know from personal experience, when i had played Eso which seemed to attract older players(again not saying there wasn’t a younger playerbase, considering i was playing it lol) but the way the game worked and everything did seem more geared toward an older audience. I just found it weird when i had played it after taking a break from 14, just how different the community is in regards to gameplay. People weren’t so sensitive to criticism and, they knew their roles and their jobs pretty well. So it does very much seem like a 14 problem to me and i feel like 14 also attracts a younger audience more due to its art style and everything. I bring eso up though because it’s the only other big mmo i’ve played but it’s also a modern one which makes me thing the problem really isn’t so much just because of this day and age. From what i’ve heard of various posters, WoW also doesn’t have much of a sensitive playerbase and their usually older as well.
    (2)

  6. #436
    Player
    SturmChurro's Avatar
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    Sturm Churro
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    Marilith
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    Quote Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami View Post
    Yeah, i can’t speak too much on it because i don’t have actual numbers i can bring up. I just know from personal experience, when i had played Eso which seemed to attract older players(again not saying there wasn’t a younger playerbase, considering i was playing it lol) but the way the game worked and everything did seem more geared toward an older audience. I just found it weird when i had played it after taking a break from 14, just how different the community is in regards to gameplay. People weren’t so sensitive to criticism and, they knew their roles and their jobs pretty well. So it does very much seem like a 14 problem to me and i feel like 14 also attracts a younger audience more due to its art style and everything. I bring eso up though because it’s the only other big mmo i’ve played but it’s also a modern one which makes me thing the problem really isn’t so much just because of this day and age. From what i’ve heard of various posters, WoW also doesn’t have much of a sensitive playerbase and their usually older as well.
    The biggest thing ESO players are sensitive with is criticism of Bethesda or ESO. They aren't as sensitive about player ability, and PvP still has a bit of trashtalking..

    FFXIV is just kind of.. overblown, with this "enable" culture. I've talked to others, and it's the same thing, never seen an MMO with it so pronounced. Like yeah, you can see the same sort of thing sometimes in other MMOs, but not to the level it is here. I think a big part of that is actually moderation, like I brought up before, and someone else did in this thread. This game fosters a kind of.. report culture. EVERYTHING is taken personally. It's an actual personal attack here. You can't criticize another's gameplay, you have to word your way around it like an attorney, or hope the other person doesn't think being told to "use AOE" is worth the time it takes to make a report.

    I do agree, the audience this game attracts is probably a big part of it, but I don't think it necessarily attracts a young one. Despite the artstyle FF is a pretty old franchise, and a lot of players here are longtime fans of the franchise. It's probably also due to how story focused this game is, so a lot of players treat it as an actual singleplayer game, and they don't appreciate any criticism of their gameplay. Maybe even due to how social the game is, or treated casually, so players are very personally invested. Well, on top of what I stated prior.
    (1)
    Last edited by SturmChurro; 05-10-2021 at 12:11 AM.
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  7. #437
    Player KizuyaKatogami's Avatar
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    Kizuya Katogami
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    Quote Originally Posted by SturmChurro View Post
    The biggest thing ESO players are sensitive with is criticism of Bethesda or ESO. They aren't as sensitive about player ability, and PvP still has a bit of trashtalking..

    FFXIV is just kind of.. overblown, with this "enable" culture. I've talked to others, and it's the same thing, never seen an MMO with it so pronounced. Like yeah, you can see the same sort of thing sometimes in other MMOs, but not to the level it is here. I think a big part of that is actually moderation, like I brought up before, and someone else did in this thread. This game fosters a kind of.. report culture. EVERYTHING is taken personally. It's an actual personal attack here. You can't criticize another's gameplay, you have to word your way around it like an attorney, or hope the other person doesn't think being told to "use AOE" is worth the time it takes to make a report.

    I do agree, the audience this game attracts is probably a big part of it, but I don't think it necessarily attracts a young one. Despite the artstyle FF is a pretty old franchise, and a lot of players here are longtime fans of the franchise. It's probably also due to how story focused this game is, so a lot of players treat it as an actual singleplayer game, and they don't appreciate any criticism of their gameplay. Maybe even due to how social the game is, or treated casually, so players are very personally invested. Well, on top of what I stated prior.
    Ah yeah i didn’t know that about their sensitivity to bethesda. Honestly though, see the same thing here with SE. People can’t criticize aspects of the game without people thinking it’s a personal attack on SE even though there’s very apparent issues this expansion with the game. In the end i really believe if something doesn’t change it’s gonna end up being the games downfall.
    (2)

  8. #438
    Player
    MirielleLavandre's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Character
    Gabrielle Beausejour
    World
    Halicarnassus
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    Paladin Lv 100
    Probably will get downvoted for this or something, but compared to my family and friends still in Japan, it seems the culture over here in the US has changed a bit in recent years with social media and all being a lot more present. These days, if someone hears or sees something they don't like or agree with (especially if is against the norm or what is normally socially acceptable), they rip out their phones, film it, post it, and if it goes against the mainstream people may get fired, doxxed, or other things. I think the world has become a lot more sensitive to things, and people know if they post vids of others that break social taboos that those people may be punished.

    Just a thought that the atmosphere in FFXIV here seems a little like the atmosphere of society as a whole these days, where wearing/not wearing a mask, saying you believe one thing as opposed to another, not using the correct words people think you should use, are all 'reportable' on social media just like reports in game ^^
    (9)

  9. #439
    Player Caurcas's Avatar
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    Jan 2020
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    Caur Kagon
    World
    Siren
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    Dark Knight Lv 90
    In a lot of ways this culture is a perversion of Individualism. Instead of the player standing on their own feet they are told by others to rely on the collective/team to carry them. This leads to those player's taking the stance that their individual enjoyment of the game take precedence over how the game is enjoyed by others. This leads to such toxic behavior as the "you don't pay my sub!" mentality, as for these players their personal enjoyment overrides all else. That is why they get a special kind of hurt when called out by an actual individualist player whom can stand on their own feet, as they are then forced to face their inadequacies and failures. Except they don't, and hide behind a ToS that protects this behavior. Leading to this ongoing hard fracture in the player base. In short, toxic is being mad at people telling you that you need to work on yourself for the good of the group and choosing not to do so. Not being toxic is calling out this behavior, its a public service.
    (8)

  10. #440
    Player
    Alxyzntlct's Avatar
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    May 2021
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    Ul'Dah
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    Alyx'ender Lutece
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 90
    I'll admit that I'm new to FFXIV as I've only been playing for about a month, but this is on the heels of having played WoW for 15+ years, so I have 2 cents to toss in real quick:

    In my experience, toxicity can be present on both fronts, both from folks who want to hide from their mistakes and those wanting to force their opinions on how the game "should" be played down other players' throats.

    For WoW, the greatest toxicity came up during endgame group content, namely M+ and Raids. And it is RAMPANT to the point that I finally decided to quit that game recently. It's frightening how many folks are so incredibly focused on completing endgame content and treat it like a job, and are all too happy to mutilate other players in the name of accomplishing that goal.

    From what I can tell, the makes of FFXIV are actively trying to avoid that problem. And honestly, I applaud them for that! Like I said, I left the other game because not only did the makers there not do anything about that kind of self-serving attitude, they actively encourage it in how they design the game. And it's making the game worse for it, which in turn is causing more and more players to -not- want to play endgame content.

    I get not wanting to have to spend extra time to work with others to improve, but conversely, that's part of being a multi-player game. Remember that other folks are paying to play this game as well, that nobody would have the world to enjoy if everyone wasn't participating. I feel it's better to air on the side of caution and be gentle with folks and make efforts to help rather than resorting to blunt tactics and force in order to strong-arm self-serving desires.
    (3)

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