MSQ

[Iscah]

I mean, this only makes sense as long as nothing of consequence ever happens without the WoL's intervention.

Was the WoL was even needed in the CT storyline to begin with? There weren't any primals locked up in there, so the only difference between the PC and any random person is that we've got the Echo, which is functionally unneeded for the 3 raids in CT, since again, nothing there will temper you, and I'd expect that Cid Garland of all people could figure out how to get through a tower full of Allagan tech.

The story would have been internally consistent regardless of the WoL's intervention, with the basic requirement that Cid and the literal heir to Allag be minimally self-sufficient, which is a requirement that they've proven time and again is one that they meet.

It's true that we actually probably didn't need to be involved in the events of CT as they happened in ARR.

However, the fact that we were involved means that those events as remembered by the Exarch did unquestionably involve us, so they cannot happen without us.

The logical place to have required completion of the Crystal Tower raids would have been with the release of 5.0, as a prerequisite for the quest "The Syrcus Trench", in contrast to its current place as a requirement for the quest "A Time To Every Purpose," which is part of the transition from A Realm Reborn to Heavensward, and was added, again, with the release of Patch 5.3, as a shift in the canon, where people who completed ARR before 5.3 had materially different requirements to begin heavensward than people who completed ARR after 5.3

Yes and no. Forcing completion now during 2.X is logical because that is clearly where the story sits in the wider scope of the plot. Cid is in his ARR outfit before he gets a new one during Heavensward; Nero is fresh from his defeat at the Praetorium; the recent destruction of the Isle of Val (established in 2.X MSQ) was referenced.

I do agree there should have been an additional gate placed at the end of 4.55 to catch players who were inbetween 2.5 and 5.0 at the time the requirement was introduced, instead of leaving it right until 5.3.

They should *not* have written an entirely different plot just because people did like a character.

(throws spoiler tags to the wind at this point)

I do actually agree that 5.3 would have played out better and more in line with the overall themes of Shadowbringers (nothing should last forever and there's a beauty in man's ephemerality) if the Exarch had truly died – but that wouldn't have precluded us still waking up young G'raha afterwards, just not as an alleged continuation of the same character we'd been dealing with throughout 5.X.

(My preferred take would be that the Exarch died without passing his soul into the vessel, so we could still pass his memories but not soul to young G'raha and everything would play out much the same since then – except that G'raha would be talking about the Exarch in third person.)

All that said, even if they'd simply closed the loop and had the Exarch die, without us waking up his younger self at all, the writers may have still opted to force the storyline simply because it does give that critical context to Shadowbringers and while some may be frustrated by it, on the other end there are people who are disappointed that they had no idea that they should have played it first.

[linayar]

I do actually agree that 5.3 would have played out better and more in line with the overall themes of Shadowbringers (nothing should last forever and there's a beauty in man's ephemerality) if the Exarch had truly died – but that wouldn't have precluded us still waking up young G'raha afterwards, just not as an alleged continuation of the same character we'd been dealing with throughout 5.X.

(My preferred take would be that the Exarch died without passing his soul into the vessel, so we could still pass his memories but not soul to young G'raha and everything would play out much the same since then – except that G'raha would be talking about the Exarch in third person.)

All that said, even if they'd simply closed the loop and had the Exarch die, without us waking up his younger self at all, the writers may have still opted to force the storyline simply because it does give that critical context to Shadowbringers and while some may be frustrated by it, on the other end there are people who are disappointed that they had no idea that they should have played it first.

G'raha has proven useful even up to 5.5's story, so I think it's a wise decision for them to use G'raha instead of having to come up with other means to continue the story.

[WhiteArchmage]

I do agree there should have been an additional gate placed at the end of 4.55 to catch players who were inbetween 2.5 and 5.0 at the time the requirement was introduced, instead of leaving it right until 5.3.

I see it from a dev perspective and trying to avoid the complaints around Heavensward again. The expansions are pretty much designed for new players to jump right into expansion content, and there were A LOT of complaints about players wanting to jump into HW and play the new jobs but still being in, say, 2.1.

Which is why 5.0 exists in that "if you haven't done CT, it hasn't happened YET for you. But it will happen at some point in your future." bubble. Their bottom-line for 5.0 would have been players who are jumping right in with skip potions or who joined at 4.0 and haven't done ARR side-content, or who are just jumping in the game and putting a block at lvl 50 ALONGSIDE the 80 quests between ARR and HW would have been too much. Therefore, they wanted to give those players a "buffer period" where they could jump right in to the expansion content without going "Wait, I have to do a whole questline with THREE level 50 raids?!" I guess by the time 5.3 rolled around they figured it had been enough and anyone who bought ShB without running CT had had more than enough time to do so.

[Iscah]

G'raha has proven useful even up to 5.5's story, so I think it's a wise decision for them to use G'raha instead of having to come up with other means to continue the story.

That's my point though - still have him there with the knowledge and resources that the Exarch picked up, but talking about him like it's a separate person whose mind he knows very well.

So instead of "I learned how to do this back in the Crystarium" he'd say "the Exarch knew how to do this".

You'd even maintain the fanboying-over-future-historical-figures thing because he still has that information about them, just received secondhand.

[linayar]

That's my point though - still have him there with the knowledge and resources that the Exarch picked up, but more like it's a separate person whose mind he knows very well.

I think that would be hard to imagine happening without his mind being influenced. You would then also have to develop this new G'raha, and it would be jarring when you already have the Exarch.

[Iscah]

I see it from a dev perspective and trying to avoid the complaints around Heavensward again. The expansions are pretty much designed for new players to jump right into expansion content, and there were A LOT of complaints about players wanting to jump into HW and play the new jobs but still being in, say, 2.1.

Which is why 5.0 exists in that "if you haven't done CT, it hasn't happened YET for you. But it will happen at some point in your future." bubble. Their bottom-line for 5.0 would have been players who are jumping right in with skip potions or who joined at 4.0 and haven't done ARR side-content, or who are just jumping in the game and putting a block at lvl 50 ALONGSIDE the 80 quests between ARR and HW would have been too much. Therefore, they wanted to give those players a "buffer period" where they could jump right in to the expansion content without going "Wait, I have to do a whole questline with THREE level 50 raids?!" I guess by the time 5.3 rolled around they figured it had been enough and anyone who bought ShB without running CT had had more than enough time to do so.

I do think that's what happened and why we didn't get the requirement at the time 5.0 released, but I mean when they added the requirement in 5.3 for players to do it before progressing to 5.3. That's already a secondary catch point for players who missed the proper gate at 2.5, so I feel like at the same time they could/should have added a gate in 4.5 or 4.55 as well.

It won't affect story skips in any case, since post-5.3 the original Crystal Tower raids are completed along with all the other MSQ up to that point, just like they previously included the optional-but-required hard primal fights.

[Iscah]

I think that would be hard to imagine happening without his mind being influenced. You would then also have to develop this new G'raha, and it would be jarring when you already have the Exarch.

Not really. We already had established him as a character in the original CT storyline.

I just think it could be more interesting than the current state the character. He doesn't feel like the Exarch any more, but he talks entirely from that perspective and not like there's any melding between the two parts of his personality.

[linayar]

Not really. We already had established him as a character in the original CT storyline.

No, I mean that there is a gap in knowledge between where he was when we left him and where the Exarch is.

I just think it could be more interesting than the current state the character. He doesn't feel like the Exarch any more, but he talks entirely from that perspective and not like there's any melding between the two parts of his personality.

I think the only difference is that the Exarch was more reserved since he had a responsibility over Crystarium. Post 5.3 is just showing the Exarch as he is without the stress.

[Iscah]

No, I mean that there is a gap in knowledge between where he was when we left him and where the Exarch is.

I'm not sure how that would affect things. If you resume having young G'raha, he has the same personality he had in CT and the gap is irrelevant.

I just feel like there are more interesting ways they could take his current situation, whether it's that idea of it being young G'raha grappling with receiving his older self's memories or having both souls-and-memories merged into the same self trying trying to get used to the fact that he's sort of thinking from both perspectives of his life at once (eg. the events at the Crystal Tower being equally years ago and last week).

He feels a bit flat right now.

[SturmChurro]

G'raha is in a real sad state currently, because he's pretty much still the Crystal Exarch. If we really had to have him, the Crystal Exarch should have stayed dead in the Crystal Tower on The First, and G'raha Tia should have had a new character arc; coming to terms with his future self's sacrifice. As G'raha Tia and The Crystal Exarch were at that point different people. As it stands now, G'raha Tia is pitiful, in my view. He gladly shirked all his duties on the first, all the people who saw him as a leader - even a father - just so he can follow around the WoL like a schoolboy, with his hero-worship. The Crystal Exarch truly sacrificing himself for his people, would have told a much better story.