MSQ

[Arkevorkhat]

So they should've written an entirely different plot because you don't like a character? Because if we can do that, I'd love to go back and make Zenos stay dead in Stormblood.

Absolutely not.

I'm unhappy specifically BECAUSE they added a weak, questionably consistent twist to the story because they thought that people would be mad if they killed G'raha.

They should *not* have written an entirely different plot just because people did like a character.

They had been foreshadowing G'raha's death from the beginning of the expansion, and then said "actually no, he's actually still alive." A decision that took what could have been an extremely powerful, impactful story point and turned it into a weak, meaningless one.

Imagine if they said "uhh, actually... Here's Haurchefant back, he never actually died." People would be pissed, his death was a major story point in Heavensward, and he was a beloved character.

Stories and plot points should have consequences. All they've done here is tell the community that until we see a funeral, there is no death in the FF14 story, and that's a really poor precedent to set.

[Seera1024]

Absolutely not.

I'm unhappy specifically BECAUSE they added a weak, questionably consistent twist to the story because they thought that people would be mad if they killed G'raha.

They should *not* have written an entirely different plot just because people did like a character.

They had been foreshadowing G'raha's death from the beginning of the expansion, and then said "actually no, he's actually still alive." A decision that took what could have been an extremely powerful, impactful story point and turned it into a weak, meaningless one.

Imagine if they said "uhh, actually... Here's Haurchefant back, he never actually died." People would be pissed, his death was a major story point in Heavensward, and he was a beloved character.

I don't have a problem with them having added G'raha to the story and the Scions. Since the Trust system pulls from the Scions mostly for the permanently available options they probably wanted a tank that was capable of tanking without the limitations that Thancred has due to the story. Or to avoid having to replace another member of the trusts since they have to replace Ryne since she's only available on the First and not the Source.

I wish they had done it such that he didn't get the memories back. They weren't too sure in the First if the transference would work given the G'raha back on the Source had a soul still. Then he could have had an arc of him feeling like he has to try to live up to who he had become on the First - the Exarch. But then coming to an understanding that he just needs to be himself after realizing that the Exarch became the Exarch due to the circumstances he was in - circumstances that Shadowbringers' story was designed to prevent in the first place.

I just hope he quickly moves past the fanboy stage with several of the more notable characters. As that will get old quickly.

[Arkevorkhat]

I don't have a problem with them having added G'raha to the story and the Scions. Since the Trust system pulls from the Scions mostly for the permanently available options they probably wanted a tank that was capable of tanking without the limitations that Thancred has due to the story. Or to avoid having to replace another member of the trusts since they have to replace Ryne since she's only available on the First and not the Source.

I mean, it's already confirmed that we're getting Estinien into the trust system with 6.0, personal hygiene joke and all.

Besides, there are a bunch of people who could have been added to the trust system as tanks before dragging the Exarch from the first.
Arenvald, for example.

[Seera1024]

I mean, it's already confirmed that we're getting Estinien into the trust system with 6.0, personal hygiene joke and all.

Besides, there are a bunch of people who could have been added to the trust system as tanks before dragging the Exarch from the first.
Arenvald, for example.

I did mention that they had to replace Ryne already. I just didn't mention who they brought in to replace her.

And those tank possibilities might have other responsibilities in the story that would prevent them from being used.

Also probably easier to keep than swap out characters so they probably were trying to avoid doing that where plausible.

It was possible for G'raha. I just wish they had gone about it in a different way.

[Iscah]

I mean, this only makes sense as long as nothing of consequence ever happens without the WoL's intervention.

Was the WoL was even needed in the CT storyline to begin with? There weren't any primals locked up in there, so the only difference between the PC and any random person is that we've got the Echo, which is functionally unneeded for the 3 raids in CT, since again, nothing there will temper you, and I'd expect that Cid Garland of all people could figure out how to get through a tower full of Allagan tech.

The story would have been internally consistent regardless of the WoL's intervention, with the basic requirement that Cid and the literal heir to Allag be minimally self-sufficient, which is a requirement that they've proven time and again is one that they meet.

It's true that we actually probably didn't need to be involved in the events of CT as they happened in ARR.

However, the fact that we were involved means that those events as remembered by the Exarch did unquestionably involve us, so they cannot happen without us.

The logical place to have required completion of the Crystal Tower raids would have been with the release of 5.0, as a prerequisite for the quest "The Syrcus Trench", in contrast to its current place as a requirement for the quest "A Time To Every Purpose," which is part of the transition from A Realm Reborn to Heavensward, and was added, again, with the release of Patch 5.3, as a shift in the canon, where people who completed ARR before 5.3 had materially different requirements to begin heavensward than people who completed ARR after 5.3

Yes and no. Forcing completion now during 2.X is logical because that is clearly where the story sits in the wider scope of the plot. Cid is in his ARR outfit before he gets a new one during Heavensward; Nero is fresh from his defeat at the Praetorium; the recent destruction of the Isle of Val (established in 2.X MSQ) was referenced.

I do agree there should have been an additional gate placed at the end of 4.55 to catch players who were inbetween 2.5 and 5.0 at the time the requirement was introduced, instead of leaving it right until 5.3.

They should *not* have written an entirely different plot just because people did like a character.

(throws spoiler tags to the wind at this point)

I do actually agree that 5.3 would have played out better and more in line with the overall themes of Shadowbringers (nothing should last forever and there's a beauty in man's ephemerality) if the Exarch had truly died – but that wouldn't have precluded us still waking up young G'raha afterwards, just not as an alleged continuation of the same character we'd been dealing with throughout 5.X.

(My preferred take would be that the Exarch died without passing his soul into the vessel, so we could still pass his memories but not soul to young G'raha and everything would play out much the same since then – except that G'raha would be talking about the Exarch in third person.)

All that said, even if they'd simply closed the loop and had the Exarch die, without us waking up his younger self at all, the writers may have still opted to force the storyline simply because it does give that critical context to Shadowbringers and while some may be frustrated by it, on the other end there are people who are disappointed that they had no idea that they should have played it first.

[linayar]

I do actually agree that 5.3 would have played out better and more in line with the overall themes of Shadowbringers (nothing should last forever and there's a beauty in man's ephemerality) if the Exarch had truly died – but that wouldn't have precluded us still waking up young G'raha afterwards, just not as an alleged continuation of the same character we'd been dealing with throughout 5.X.

(My preferred take would be that the Exarch died without passing his soul into the vessel, so we could still pass his memories but not soul to young G'raha and everything would play out much the same since then – except that G'raha would be talking about the Exarch in third person.)

All that said, even if they'd simply closed the loop and had the Exarch die, without us waking up his younger self at all, the writers may have still opted to force the storyline simply because it does give that critical context to Shadowbringers and while some may be frustrated by it, on the other end there are people who are disappointed that they had no idea that they should have played it first.

G'raha has proven useful even up to 5.5's story, so I think it's a wise decision for them to use G'raha instead of having to come up with other means to continue the story.

[Iscah]

G'raha has proven useful even up to 5.5's story, so I think it's a wise decision for them to use G'raha instead of having to come up with other means to continue the story.

That's my point though - still have him there with the knowledge and resources that the Exarch picked up, but talking about him like it's a separate person whose mind he knows very well.

So instead of "I learned how to do this back in the Crystarium" he'd say "the Exarch knew how to do this".

You'd even maintain the fanboying-over-future-historical-figures thing because he still has that information about them, just received secondhand.

[WhiteArchmage]

I do agree there should have been an additional gate placed at the end of 4.55 to catch players who were inbetween 2.5 and 5.0 at the time the requirement was introduced, instead of leaving it right until 5.3.

I see it from a dev perspective and trying to avoid the complaints around Heavensward again. The expansions are pretty much designed for new players to jump right into expansion content, and there were A LOT of complaints about players wanting to jump into HW and play the new jobs but still being in, say, 2.1.

Which is why 5.0 exists in that "if you haven't done CT, it hasn't happened YET for you. But it will happen at some point in your future." bubble. Their bottom-line for 5.0 would have been players who are jumping right in with skip potions or who joined at 4.0 and haven't done ARR side-content, or who are just jumping in the game and putting a block at lvl 50 ALONGSIDE the 80 quests between ARR and HW would have been too much. Therefore, they wanted to give those players a "buffer period" where they could jump right in to the expansion content without going "Wait, I have to do a whole questline with THREE level 50 raids?!" I guess by the time 5.3 rolled around they figured it had been enough and anyone who bought ShB without running CT had had more than enough time to do so.

[Iscah]

I see it from a dev perspective and trying to avoid the complaints around Heavensward again. The expansions are pretty much designed for new players to jump right into expansion content, and there were A LOT of complaints about players wanting to jump into HW and play the new jobs but still being in, say, 2.1.

Which is why 5.0 exists in that "if you haven't done CT, it hasn't happened YET for you. But it will happen at some point in your future." bubble. Their bottom-line for 5.0 would have been players who are jumping right in with skip potions or who joined at 4.0 and haven't done ARR side-content, or who are just jumping in the game and putting a block at lvl 50 ALONGSIDE the 80 quests between ARR and HW would have been too much. Therefore, they wanted to give those players a "buffer period" where they could jump right in to the expansion content without going "Wait, I have to do a whole questline with THREE level 50 raids?!" I guess by the time 5.3 rolled around they figured it had been enough and anyone who bought ShB without running CT had had more than enough time to do so.

I do think that's what happened and why we didn't get the requirement at the time 5.0 released, but I mean when they added the requirement in 5.3 for players to do it before progressing to 5.3. That's already a secondary catch point for players who missed the proper gate at 2.5, so I feel like at the same time they could/should have added a gate in 4.5 or 4.55 as well.

It won't affect story skips in any case, since post-5.3 the original Crystal Tower raids are completed along with all the other MSQ up to that point, just like they previously included the optional-but-required hard primal fights.