MSQ

[Vidu]

Exactly!

So why are all the other dungeons required as part of the MSQ?

Because they're telling part of the story - the parts where you go to a certain place and fight whatever danger awaits you there. Something very, very common in RPGs in general and the FF-series as a whole.
FFXIV isnt an interactive movie, Walking Simulator or some adventure, its an RPG with an action-gameplay and that happens mostly in dungeons and is integrated into the story.

But aren't included in the roulette if they are important?

Because they're included in other roulettes.
Those two specific dungeons in the MSQ-roulette are a special case - some would call them a mistake that SE thankfully never repeated. They take 2-3 times the amount of time a normal dungeon takes and are loaded with cutscenes, making them pretty boring and annoying to do after the first (maybe second) time. All other dungeons focus more on the actual gameplay, while those two 8-man-dungeons have a lot of time thats spent doing... nothing but watching a cutscene. There have been lots of complains about these dungeons from both sides - veterans and new players - often in regards to people just bailing if they get into the cutscene-heaver one of them. A problem that would only increase if someone ends up in Castrum instead of one of the 4-man-dungeons - lots of people would simply bail and hope for a shorter dungeon for their next queue instead.

Seperating these two dungeons into their own roulette (and tacking a heavty reward on it) was the best thing they could do.

All other dungeons are in their respective roulettes - leveling, level 50/60/70, level 80. Something that seems quite sensible to me, since it gives you a little bit of an idea of what to expect if you queue for one of the roulettes.

[Tommara]

But seriously, if you all think that 80 level 50 quests are necessary before being able to get out of ARR, your tolerance for tedium is greater than mine, and I played Everquest at release (actually before that, in EQ's stress beta), and watched a stump for a ground spawn for days.

Edited Note: Or perhaps my intolerance for tedium is grounded in my EQ experience.

[CazzT]

But seriously, if you all think that 80 level 50 quests are necessary before being able to get out of ARR, your tolerance for tedium is greater than mine, and I played Everquest at release (actually before that, in EQ's stress beta), and watched a stump for a ground spawn for days.

Edited Note: Or perhaps my intolerance for tedium is grounded in my EQ experience.

Or our appreciation for storytelling is higher than yours. This isn't WoW where the story is irrelevant and so is your character. We are the champion of the story here.

FFXIV isn't even in the same galactic zip code of tedium as EQ1.

[TaleraRistain]

But seriously, if you all think that 80 level 50 quests are necessary before being able to get out of ARR, your tolerance for tedium is greater than mine, and I played Everquest at release (actually before that, in EQ's stress beta), and watched a stump for a ground spawn for days.

Edited Note: Or perhaps my intolerance for tedium is grounded in my EQ experience.

...how long did you play? Because tedium here has nothing on tedium there. EQ didn't have instanced dungeons (until LDoN) or roulettes (which maybe they've added at some point since it's still getting new content). Plus we don't have to stand in front of an NPC /saying 20 combinations of a phrase until we find the right one to start a quest. A little filler here and there is nothing, and they have gotten better at reducing fetch quests and making what we do engaging.

Also, there are things that seem to be side items that become incredibly relevant to the story later on. I want to avoid spoilers, but there is something in the current MSQ related to Alisaie that is like that. CT was like that, before it was made required. Shadowbringers has all kinds of this sort of thing. We may not understand the significance when we first see it, but they often wind back around to those subtle little threads they put out early on in the game. So this "filler" cannot be a sidequest.

[Tommara]

...how long did you play? Because tedium here has nothing on tedium there. EQ didn't have instanced dungeons (until LDoN) or roulettes (which maybe they've added at some point since it's still getting new content). Plus we don't have to stand in front of an NPC /saying 20 combinations of a phrase until we find the right one to start a quest. A little filler here and there is nothing, and they have gotten better at reducing fetch quests and making what we do engaging.

Also, there are things that seem to be side items that become incredibly relevant to the story later on. I want to avoid spoilers, but there is something in the current MSQ related to Alisaie that is like that. CT was like that, before it was made required. Shadowbringers has all kinds of this sort of thing. We may not understand the significance when we first see it, but they often wind back around to those subtle little threads they put out early on in the game. So this "filler" cannot be a sidequest.

How long did I play EQ, is that what you meant? I first started playing EQ when it was in beta. I made my first character the day it was officially released. For about 3-4 years after that, I played it so much, that I was one of the players that made Evercrack a meme, but tapered off to take breaks by playing Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxy, Asheron's Call, Earth and Beyond, Horizons, Dark Age of Camelot, City of Heroes, Final Fantasy XI, etc.

All of which had a tedium of their own.

What makes FFXIV unique in the tedium department, is that it's gated tedium, which is mostly done solo. Which is all I really meant by bringing up EQ. Yes, EQ is the most tedious MMO to play ever, which is why I brought it up to begin with.

Because EQ wasn't gated by quests. Despite it's name, Everquest didn't have a lot of quests and what quests you managed to find were optional. We instead, spent most of our time leveling together. Grinding our levels, for sure, but always with other people whenever we had a chance.

Unlike FFXIV, which gates access to each expansion by the MSQ.

I am not saying those quests are unimportant for the story. I believe they are, else I would have paid to skip them.

But for those who'd rather skip or postpone the 80-ish (78?) level 50 ARR MSQs just to play Heavensward, there should be another option rather than paying to skip them.

Edited Note: My only reason for mentioning EQ and other old school MMOs was to make clear that my tolerance for tedium is very high. But it also created an intolerance for tedium. I'm not alone in that opinion. One of my EQ friends has abandoned FF14 because of the ARR MSQ, and I think another EQ friend is about to leave FFXIV, while with only 4 MSQs before they can play Heavensward.

By EQ standards, we were not a raiding guild. But in hindsight, the fact that we frequently played together in 2 or 3 groups would qualify as a raiding guild in any other game.

[Shibi]

....let's just say I spent my day playing No Man's Sky (where building your own custom house is not savage, and actually serves a useful purpose. OK, so gardening is useful in both games. But in No Man's Sky, I didn't have to spend any time clicking on a sign, the cost was trivial, and I got to actually build my own house exactly how I wanted - although the textures aren't so great).

Well, all up you will spend 2 or 3 weeks mining ferrite/cobalt/carbon and refining that. A lot more clicking than an average ffxiv house needs.

My take, the FF story is fairly ok, it's probably just not the game for you. Enjoy NMS. I do, with 1500 hours under my belt so far.

[Kuroka]

I feel its quite the oppisite, the Warring triad, omega, Ivalice should have been MSQ stuff as well, it is first and foremost a storydriven game and they limit and handycap themselfs so much by making so many things "side stuff" only... we loose out voicing bc of that as well...

If FFXIV has to much that you - or your friends - dont like or that you cant get your head around, theres nothing wrong with switching to a different game thats more fun to you.

Exactly this...

[WhiteArchmage]

I feel its quite the oppisite, the Warring triad, omega, Ivalice should have been MSQ stuff as well, it is first and foremost a storydriven game and they limit and handycap themselfs so much by making so many things "side stuff" only... we loose out voicing bc of that as well...

Seeing how many plot points come out of THOSE "side stories"

Unukhalai's entire existence, the backstory of the Thirteenth, the Dalmascan Resistance which cameos in the MSQ and returns in Bozja, the whole Alexander and Omega storylines which become relevant in the Twinning and as such are relevant for ShB backstory... Heck, Eden itself follows MSQ by responding to the events of 5.2 and 5.3.

I feel the MSQ would benefit from acknowledging them instead of trying to write around them.

[Iscah]

Seeing how many plot points come out of THOSE "side stories"

Unukhalai's entire existence, the backstory of the Thirteenth, the Dalmascan Resistance which cameos in the MSQ and returns in Bozja, the whole Alexander and Omega storylines which become relevant in the Twinning and as such are relevant for ShB backstory... Heck, Eden itself follows MSQ by responding to the events of 5.2 and 5.3.

I feel the MSQ would benefit from acknowledging them instead of trying to write around them.

The thing there (which would be improved by making them MSQ) is that the writers don't pretend something has happened if the individual player hasn't done the optional quest yet, so they can't rely on it as a previous event.

The exception with that approach is...

of course the Alexander and Omega raids (and CT at the time 5.0 released) but that's because of time convolutions meaning they don't need to have happened yet as long as they happen at some point in the future.

[WhiteArchmage]

The thing there (which would be improved by making them MSQ) is that the writers don't pretend something has happened if the individual player hasn't done the optional quest yet, so they can't rely on it as a previous event.

The exception with that approach is...

of course the Alexander and Omega raids (and CT at the time 5.0 released) but that's because of time convolutions meaning they don't need to have happened yet as long as they happen at some point in the future.

Oh, yes, that's what I meant. Much like how CT was made mandatory for 5.3; side-stories like The Warring Triad, Return to Ivalice, or Alexander, should be made mandatory at SOME point, even if there'd be more complaints about grinding the story to a halt if, say, 4.0 required you to complete all the MSQ up to 3.5 AND the Alexander quests (Gods know how loud people would get over being forced to do Ivalice, which while my favorite raid series, is VERY long).

Otherwise it's like "Well, we can't bring THAT plot point back, because new players haven't done The Four Gods..."