MSQ

[Iscah]

He gladly shirked all his duties on the first, all the people who saw him as a leader - even a father - just so he can follow around the WoL like a schoolboy, with his hero-worship.

That's a pretty harsh way of looking at it. He died in that world and he can't return to it. It's only by fortune of having the soul crystal prepared that he was able to continue to exist at all.

Even if he'd passed his soul back to he Source without the exact events being forced by Elidibus, he'd been running the city for a century and seen it through the encroaching threat of the sin eaters, and probably felt that he didn't want to keep doing it literally forever (as he physically could have) and there was a point where he should hand over to a new generation. Given time to do it as he originally intended, it probably would have involved a lot more organising and discussion with the people that needed to fill his role - and honestly they seem like they'd collectively have it well in hand anyway. He seems to have been more of a final decision-maker and spokesperson for the city, and that part could easily be handled by a council or successor.

[SturmChurro]

That's a pretty harsh way of looking at it. He died in that world and he can't return to it. It's only by fortune of having the soul crystal prepared that he was able to continue to exist at all.

Even if he'd passed his soul back to he Source without the exact events being forced by Elidibus, he'd been running the city for a century and seen it through the encroaching threat of the sin eaters, and probably felt that he didn't want to keep doing it literally forever (as he physically could have) and there was a point where he should hand over to a new generation. Given time to do it as he originally intended, it probably would have involved a lot more organising and discussion with the people that needed to fill his role - and honestly they seem like they'd collectively have it well in hand anyway. He seems to have been more of a final decision-maker and spokesperson for the city, and that part could easily be handled by a council or successor.

The Crystal Exarch created that extra soul crystal on purpose, he didn't just have a spare. Hence, why I say he gladly shirked his duties on the first. The story was cheapened by his 'fake' sacrifice. It completely deflates any emotional involvement the player could have, as he is literally resurrected (better than ever!) in like.. the next scene.

The Crystal Exarch truly sacrificing himself would have had a much bigger impact on the story, and the game. It would have still accomplished him handing over the reigns, so to speak, to the "new generation"; A bittersweet ending to ShB, and the first. As G'raha Tia was still alive on The Source, it would have allowed for new character development, and a more 'fresh' take on the character.

[Alleo]

I put the whole discussion about shadowbringer behind a spoiler text since the OP said that they have not played it yet and I dont really want to spoil much for others.

The Crystal Exarch created that extra soul crystal on purpose, he didn't just have a spare. Hence, why I say he gladly shirked his duties on the first. The story was cheapened by his 'fake' sacrifice. It completely deflates any emotional involvement the player could have, as he is literally resurrected (better than ever!) in like.. the next scene.

The Crystal Exarch truly sacrificing himself would have had a much bigger impact on the story, and the game. It would have still accomplished him handing over the reigns, so to speak, to the "new generation"; A bittersweet ending to ShB, and the first. As G'raha Tia was still alive on The Source, it would have allowed for new character development, and a more 'fresh' take on the character.

I am not sure how he shirked his duties? He would have simply died...his body was going beyond its limits thanks to the usage of the crystal tower. I honestly dont understand that point. Without the crystal he would have die, with the crystal he died but got a second chance in the world that he was from. For the people on the first the outcome itself would have stayed the same but now they may be more at peace with it since they know that he continues to live on in the other world but deep down he is still death to them because they will never see him again which in turn means that for them it was not a "fake" sacrifice.

If his body had not died there and he could have continued on living on the first then maybe you could say that he "shirked" his duties if he would have still gone with us...but at the same time, he has proteced the city for a huge amount of time and even if not all is 100% well, the people there now live a good life and the biggest threats are done. Why should he be forced to have to live there?

Also fresh take on the character...that reminds me so much of Lyse..."killing" of a character we know just to have this imo stupid surprise of her being her sister and thus just changing her up...For me that did not work at all. Lyse was one of the worst parts of Stormblood for me.

Killing of characters so that we are basically forced to get new ones without much development and needing to take time to develop them is something I dont like much. I like it much more that we have him now, with the knowledge and experience of what happened, while being able to see in which direction they go.

[Tommara]

...how long did you play? Because tedium here has nothing on tedium there. EQ didn't have instanced dungeons (until LDoN) or roulettes (which maybe they've added at some point since it's still getting new content). Plus we don't have to stand in front of an NPC /saying 20 combinations of a phrase until we find the right one to start a quest. A little filler here and there is nothing, and they have gotten better at reducing fetch quests and making what we do engaging.

Also, there are things that seem to be side items that become incredibly relevant to the story later on. I want to avoid spoilers, but there is something in the current MSQ related to Alisaie that is like that. CT was like that, before it was made required. Shadowbringers has all kinds of this sort of thing. We may not understand the significance when we first see it, but they often wind back around to those subtle little threads they put out early on in the game. So this "filler" cannot be a sidequest.

How long did I play EQ, is that what you meant? I first started playing EQ when it was in beta. I made my first character the day it was officially released. For about 3-4 years after that, I played it so much, that I was one of the players that made Evercrack a meme, but tapered off to take breaks by playing Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxy, Asheron's Call, Earth and Beyond, Horizons, Dark Age of Camelot, City of Heroes, Final Fantasy XI, etc.

All of which had a tedium of their own.

What makes FFXIV unique in the tedium department, is that it's gated tedium, which is mostly done solo. Which is all I really meant by bringing up EQ. Yes, EQ is the most tedious MMO to play ever, which is why I brought it up to begin with.

Because EQ wasn't gated by quests. Despite it's name, Everquest didn't have a lot of quests and what quests you managed to find were optional. We instead, spent most of our time leveling together. Grinding our levels, for sure, but always with other people whenever we had a chance.

Unlike FFXIV, which gates access to each expansion by the MSQ.

I am not saying those quests are unimportant for the story. I believe they are, else I would have paid to skip them.

But for those who'd rather skip or postpone the 80-ish (78?) level 50 ARR MSQs just to play Heavensward, there should be another option rather than paying to skip them.

Edited Note: My only reason for mentioning EQ and other old school MMOs was to make clear that my tolerance for tedium is very high. But it also created an intolerance for tedium. I'm not alone in that opinion. One of my EQ friends has abandoned FF14 because of the ARR MSQ, and I think another EQ friend is about to leave FFXIV, while with only 4 MSQs before they can play Heavensward.

By EQ standards, we were not a raiding guild. But in hindsight, the fact that we frequently played together in 2 or 3 groups would qualify as a raiding guild in any other game.

[Iscah]

The Crystal Exarch created that extra soul crystal on purpose, he didn't just have a spare. Hence, why I say he gladly shirked his duties on the first.

That is the point I wrote my entire second paragraph against. It's awfully harsh to describe passing on his role after completing his primary purpose, which he spent a hundred years doing, as "shirking" - even if it had played out in the intended organised way and not forced by his impending death.

He has not-shirked for a hundred years and successfully saved the First from utter destruction and the Source from calamity, and if that isn't enough effort to be allowed to retire without being called a shirker for doing so, I'm not sure what is.

The story was cheapened by his 'fake' sacrifice. It completely deflates any emotional involvement the player could have, as he is literally resurrected (better than ever!) in like.. the next scene.

The Crystal Exarch truly sacrificing himself would have had a much bigger impact on the story, and the game. It would have still accomplished him handing over the reigns, so to speak, to the "new generation"; A bittersweet ending to ShB, and the first. As G'raha Tia was still alive on The Source, it would have allowed for new character development, and a more 'fresh' take on the character.

I do agree with that. Thus my preference that they had let him truly die there - this not cheapening the sadness that he is dying, even if we still intend to wake up his younger self (who is not him) and take him on the adventure that the Exarch never got to have.

[linayar]

I'm not sure how that would affect things. If you resume having young G'raha, he has the same personality he had in CT and the gap is irrelevant.

The gap is relevant because there is a difference between knowing about something and experiencing it for yourself. Essentially, all the time we had with the Exarch would be gone just to have Source G'raha back for no reason while still having Exarch's knowledge. That is such a convoluted way of doing it.

I just feel like there are more interesting ways they could take his current situation, whether it's that idea of it being young G'raha grappling with receiving his older self's memories or having both souls-and-memories merged into the same self trying trying to get used to the fact that he's sort of thinking from both perspectives of his life at once (eg. the events at the Crystal Tower being equally years ago and last week).

He feels a bit flat right now.

Remember, it's not like Source G'raha had a different experience to the Exarch. It's literally adding Exarch's additional memories. And since they're the same person, it would've resulted in the same person.

[Kozh]

The gap is relevant because there is a difference between knowing about something and experiencing it for yourself. Essentially, all the time we had with the Exarch would be gone just to have Source G'raha back for no reason while still having Exarch's knowledge. That is such a convoluted way of doing it.

Remember, it's not like Source G'raha had a different experience to the Exarch. It's literally adding Exarch's additional memories. And since they're the same person, it would've resulted in the same person.

Oh he definitely relive the memory like he experienced it himself, as shown when we went to ishgard.

My biggest problem with current g'raha is that he feels like 80% Exarch and 20% young g'raha. Rather than a blending, he's more of split personality. Most of the time he act and speak like the Exarch, with rare moments when he went OOC and act like his young self. Sometimes it even doesn't feel like how young g'raha would act, too, like when he meet estinien. Not even young g'raha is that cringy.

Shadowbringer main theme is entrusting the future to the new generation and let it go when your time has come. Yet g'raha is the only who's able to cheat "death". After 100+ years and lived through a calamity, I doubt you'll be the same person as you were. And now that the future is going to be rewriten, isn't it more poetic to let young g'raha to experience it without having the burden of knowledge and memory of the doomed time-line? He had the potential to be a different person, yet now his personality is stuck due to him already being the Exarch.

It's just frustrating to me that (probably) just because he's fan favorite, he got this special treatment. If this happened to other character, let say for example, to minfilia, I doubt they would let her survive 5.3.

[linayar]

Oh he definitely relive the memory like he experienced it himself, as shown when we went to ishgard.

My biggest problem with current g'raha is that he feels like 80% Exarch and 20% young g'raha. Rather than a blending, he's more of split personality. Most of the time he act and speak like the Exarch, with rare moments when he went OOC and act like his young self. Sometimes it even doesn't feel like how young g'raha would act, too, like when he meet estinien. Not even young g'raha is that cringy.

Shadowbringer main theme is entrusting the future to the new generation and let it go when your time has come. Yet g'raha is the only who's able to cheat "death". After 100+ years and lived through a calamity, I doubt you'll be the same person as you were. And now that the future is going to be rewriten, isn't it more poetic to let young g'raha to experience it without having the burden of knowledge and memory of the doomed time-line? He had the potential to be a different person, yet now his personality is stuck due to him already being the Exarch.

Like I said before, I think he acts like the Exarch who doesn't have the responsibility of overseeing the Crystarium and has a younger and healthier body, hence his reactions so far. ARR G'raha wouldn't act like that in all probability.

And you talk about entrusting the future to the next generation, but that's what the Exarch did by leaving the Crystarium to the people there. And technically, he is the "next generation" of his own self as ARR G'raha is his past.

It's just frustrating to me that (probably) just because he's fan favorite, he got this special treatment. If this happened to other character, let say for example, to minfilia, I doubt they would let her survive 5.3.

We don't really know what they'll do otherwise. It really depends on where they want to take the story with these characters.

[Kozh]

Like I said before, I think he acts like the Exarch who doesn't have the responsibility of overseeing the Crystarium and has a younger and healthier body, hence his reactions so far. ARR G'raha wouldn't act like that in all probability.

And you talk about entrusting the future to the next generation, but that's what the Exarch did by leaving the Crystarium to the people there. And technically, he is the "next generation" of his own self as ARR G'raha is his past.

We don't really know what they'll do otherwise. It really depends on where they want to take the story with these characters.

Uh yeah, that's my point to?? What I mean to say is that giving g'raha the Exarch's memory is already dubious enough, but he had to shove his own soul too. This resulted in current g'raha mostly being the Exarch, not our time line g'raha. And I personally dislike that.

He may have entrust the First into crystarium people, but I'm talking more about his self. And no, current g'raha isn't "next generation" past g'raha. If he truly was, he should be free from the knowledge and personality of the Exarch to develop into his own person, since the new time line will have new future. Maybe this example isn't the best, but this situation is like if minfilia still tag along inside ryne despite already giving all her power, and changing ryne's personality due to that.

[linayar]

Uh yeah, that's my point to?? What I mean to say is that giving g'raha the Exarch's memory is already dubious enough, but he had to shove his own soul too. This resulted in current g'raha mostly being the Exarch, not our time line g'raha. And I personally dislike that.

He may have entrust the First into crystarium people, but I'm talking more about his self. And no, current g'raha isn't "next generation" past g'raha. If he truly was, he should be free from the knowledge and personality of the Exarch to develop into his own person, since the new time line will have new future. Maybe this example isn't the best, but this situation is like if minfilia still tag along inside ryne despite already giving all her power, and changing ryne's personality due to that.

The Minfilia comparison is not valid because Ryne is a different person altogether.

The situation with the Exarch would be if you give Ryne the knowledge of what she will do in the future and have her act based on having lived that future.