Fix the Elemental Wheel

[waldo]

"You cast water on the grease fire!"
"The grease fire goes ape-shit and kills your party!!"

[Soukyuu]

You said you don't care if its fire<->ice or lightning <-> water. That is FFX's elemental system. I'm asking you to explain how that is any less ludicrous than wind-> fire.

If you're responding to my edit, then you should be asking to explain how water -> fire makes more sense than wind -> fire, no? In which case I can point you to the wiki link again, every culture believing in basic elements used that combination, with wind being opposite of earth. Water is also more likely to quench fire than wind, as I already said.

Changing it to fire <-> wind is just changing it for the sake of changing. While every game strives for originality, there is good and bad originality. Ver 1.0 was bad originality and the wheels are part of it.

As for water <-> lightning, they just coupled fire <-> ice and wind <-> earth, so the only ones left were water and lightning. I never stated water <-> lightning makes more sense than wind -> fire, I only said the other systems made more sense as a whole. One absurdity is better than... uh... about 6?

[Firon]

If you're responding to my edit, then you should be asking to explain how water -> fire makes more sense than wind -> fire, no? In which case I can point you to the wiki link again, every culture believing in basic elements used that combination, with wind being opposite of earth. Water is also more likely to quench fire than wind, as I already said.

Changing it to fire <-> wind is just changing it for the sake of changing. While every game strives for originality, there is good and bad originality. Ver 1.0 was bad originality and the wheels are part of it.

As for water <-> lightning, they just coupled fire <-> ice and wind <-> earth, so the only ones left were water and lightning. I never stated water <-> lightning makes more sense than wind -> fire, I only said the other systems made more sense as a whole. One absurdity is better than... uh... about 6?

Who says this winds just blows air how do you know this wind isnt sucking the air from the fire. You can make up a lot of thing, but back to lux point its a fantasy game and they made it this way cause they wanted to....

[Lurex]

I agree with OP. We should go back to the FFXI on this one. I hate this elemental wheel, it is convoluted.

[Zyph]

Who says this winds just blows air how do you know this wind isnt sucking the air from the fire. You can make up a lot of thing, but back to lux point its a fantasy game and they made it this way cause they wanted to....

Wind is defined as: "The perceptible natural movement of the air, esp. in the form of a current of air blowing from a particular direction."

If it sucked air, it'd be noted somewhere that it was a Vacuum sort of spell, since that is a pretty big difference. (And it would be pretty awesome.)

On a side note, I think the spell "Choke" was a "vacuum" spell.

So I'm not arguing that fire being put out by wind is "OMG IMPOSSIBRU," but doesn't water putting out fire make more sense?

[Firon]

Wind is defined as: "The perceptible natural movement of the air, esp. in the form of a current of air blowing from a particular direction."

If it sucked air, it'd be noted somewhere that it was a Vacuum sort of spell, since that is a pretty big difference. (And it would be pretty awesome.)

On a side note, I think the spell "Choke" was a "vacuum" spell.

So I'm not arguing that fire being put out by wind is "OMG IMPOSSIBRU," but doesn't water putting out fire make more sense?

Don't need to make sense you just don't like it cause it's in your comfort zone, you guys really need to stop trying to apply real life to games it will get you no where.

[Lux_Rayna]

If you're responding to my edit, then you should be asking to explain how water -> fire makes more sense than wind -> fire, no? In which case I can point you to the wiki link again, every culture believing in basic elements used that combination, with wind being opposite of earth. Water is also more likely to quench fire than wind, as I already said.

>_> based on what? If the wind is strong enough it will put out the fire. If the water is vast enough, it will put out the fire. The two are as likely to put out fire. If I blow a candle, it goes out. If I throw water on it, it goes out. If i throw ice on it, it goes out. If I throw DIRT on it, it goes out.

Water isn't more likely to put out a fire than anything else. The conditions for putting out a fire are universal for everything, drop its heat faster than it can produce it, or otherwise interrupt the process. Dirt, water, ice, wind...they all have to meet the same condition: be bigger/stronger than the flames they are trying to put out.

Again, this is why elemental wheels are illogical. There are no such thing as "elements" in the magical sense, so *anything* is convoluted.

[Enfarious]

Well this was a fun change of pace from the war <> pld arguments. Kinda wish I had read it all from day 1 but eh.

The real problem is, they were using a reasonable element system throughout nearly all previous FF titles, with fire <-> ice / earth <-> wind / water <-> lightning, but decided to change it for ffxiv. why? because...

A thought on the basis of things in general: ALL fiction is rooted in some fact, a fantasy world, ignoring the fact that it's one carrying the FF torch and all that goes along with that, has to have rules, and for the sake of making it easily accessible and enjoyable to the majority of people drawing on laws found in our own reality is how it tends to work.
Yes those laws can be modified, but to toss them all into the marble bag and pull shit out at random and see what happens will make people put away your book/game/movie.

Ask yourself, honestly now, when is the last time you read/played/watched a movie, a work of pure fiction that strayed from our own realities natural laws so wildly as to say that the majority of the time wind is detrimental to fire or that dark and light can occupy the same space at the same time. The last time that people walked on space and breathed stone, swam in fire and were burned by air? These things feel horribly wrong, you can tell me all about how they don't but deep down you just know it's wrong. The suspension of reality in a fictional work is more a matter of allowing a person to easily transition into a fantastical world than it is about creating a world that has wildly unique laws of physics. The more a person has to "learn" to accept the fiction and understand it, the less enjoyable it will be, and this leads to it being placed on a shelf behind that 1992 copy of CompTIA Server+ in a nutshell.

Ok on the wheels:
I won't say that one shape of wheel or number of wheels is better than the next, just that having them rooted in something that people can already easily relate to simply makes sense.

I can memorize the wheel/s no matter which way they run or what effects what, wrote memorization does not mean intuitive, it's actually quite the opposite, if I had to study and memorize this thing it was rather unintuitive.

If you feel the current wheels are intuitive "now" ask yourself, again honestly, how long was it before you had memorized what spell to use against what mobs? Do the mob families make sense having the elemental alignment they do? I have no clue, I don't even care that much about the wheel/s, again I can memorize it no matter what it ends up, but more importantly until(less) they add elementally aligned weapons I'll go right on stabbing things merrily.

[indira]

cure should hurt the undead

[Vaymathias]

A thought on the basis of things in general: ALL fiction is rooted in some fact, a fantasy world, ignoring the fact that it's one carrying the FF torch and all that goes along with that, has to have rules, and for the sake of making it easily accessible and enjoyable to the majority of people drawing on laws found in our own reality is how it tends to work.
Yes those laws can be modified, but to toss them all into the marble bag and pull shit out at random and see what happens will make people put away your book/game/movie.

Ask yourself, honestly now, when is the last time you read/played/watched a movie, a work of pure fiction that strayed from our own realities natural laws so wildly as to say that the majority of the time wind is detrimental to fire or that dark and light can occupy the same space at the same time. The last time that people walked on space and breathed stone, swam in fire and were burned by air? These things feel horribly wrong, you can tell me all about how they don't but deep down you just know it's wrong. The suspension of reality in a fictional work is more a matter of allowing a person to easily transition into a fantastical world than it is about creating a world that has wildly unique laws of physics. The more a person has to "learn" to accept the fiction and understand it, the less enjoyable it will be, and this leads to it being placed on a shelf behind that 1992 copy of CompTIA Server+ in a nutshell.

Truth.

Most people ask for games to be more real, but in fact, they want the games to be more "truthful", big difference. Using magic in a realistic way in fiction don't work, sicne magic isn't real, so instead you would want magic to be used in a truthful way.

Whether they "fix" the wheel or not, I hope they only use the wheel(s) for specific high magic type enemies such as espers and elementals, and just make everything else a case by case basis.

Build enemies and their strengths/weaknesses truthfully on a case by case basis. I never liked how, every earth enemy is weak to water and strong to lightning.