Fix the Elemental Wheel

[Wolfie]

It seems to me that, either you didn't read what I wrote, or you failed to comprehend it. I am not calling for an elemental wheel... the developers did And not one, but two! So, don't blame me. But if they do, I'd rather see it reflected in the world at large with consistency and logic. Otherwise it feels arbitrary.

Go back, reread my reply to your post and please notice that I'm not calling for FFXI's elemental wheel, or for any wheel at all.

Should I pull the "you can't read" card too? I will, except I'm not going to be so passive-aggressive about it. I was talking about the people complaining that there are two elemental wheels/triangles now, and that there is no ambiguity. There is structure now.

Perhaps you failed to notice, Dear Wolfie, that in this respect at least, Greek science had already gone out of the window by the time of the advent of Dalton and modern Atomic Theory.

Other than that, I never said that the Greeks a) had an elemental wheel, b) or that their people possessed an 'inherent element', or weaknesses to some other. I only pointed at the elegant historical sources for the cosmogony in many modern role-playing and adventure video games. By the way, the structure of the four or five elements was not restricted to Greek civilization. Indian, Persian, Chinese, and Japanese classical cultures all had similar systems, arguably descendants of the Greek model. (Or perhaps its forerunners, I'm not sure of the chronology.) Some of these, like some Asian systems, had additional elements and a wheel-like organization of strengths and weaknesses, called, if I recall correctly, the creation and the destruction cycles.

But I'm not arguing that these ancient theories and cycles are what makes the elemental structures in XIV and XI good or bad. I was not addressing the mention of these historical precedents to you. Read my post again.

R

See, now I get to pull the "you're illiterate" card twice, because I clearly said that whatever it is you were trying to pull with this point is irrelevant. That means you get to drop it and not continue lecturing me in history, because whatever you're trying to say here is at best tangentially important to this discussion.

[Rutelor]

Again this is a Final Fantasy ( a Fictional world) Myself nor anyone else, shouldn't think that everything in real life has to be 100% Real... :/

All I'm saying is that good fiction tends to have rules as strict as reality's. They might not be as many, but all good writers and creators create consistent worlds with inner logic. Go and revise your favorite imaginary worlds.

That's all I'm saying. Or you think it's just blowing air into a tube what makes bottles?

Anyway, I don't understand why so many people are bothered by this criticism. If you don't see a reason for it, you might very well ignore it. It's rather constructive, and it won't hurt you, or the game.

R

[Starlord]

All I'm saying is that good fiction tends to have rules as strict as reality's. They might not be as many, but all good writers and creators create consistent worlds with inner logic. Go and revise your favorite imaginary worlds.

That's all I'm saying. Or you think it's just blowing air into a tube what makes bottles?

Anyway, I don't understand why so many people are bothered by this criticism. If you don't see a reason for it, you might very well ignore it. It's rather constructive, and it won't hurt you, or the game.

R

Good writers use their imagination and put what they want to put in their story. and not what is "realistic". The Goal of the writer is to pull off an Epic story for the readers.. In a fiction story.. things like Elemental Wheels can be Creative in their own way.. like Wind can blow rocks/boulders around.. Because in the story the Imaginary Mind ( the Creator) makes up the world at hand and decides what 1 thing does better than the other, the way he wants to make it. Not make anything like a Realistic story or another person Imagination story.

So in all in all, Let the Creators do their thing. They have a goal and a mindset.. when they are focused on it... No one should distract them to do something else.

It's not hurting me at all because I'm happy the Creator is making something thats on his imagination.. and not because this person or that person says this would work better.. Giving ideas to the Creator is fine.. then he can make it the way he wants it with that idea, just don't go all crazy and be like it HAS to be this way or it will suck.

Anyways, thats all I have to say on this.

[Rutelor]

Fixed that for ya

Let's not fool ourselves, Starlord. It's not like you don't have strong opinions about the game, or that you don't express them vehemently. And all kudos to you for that. I will still reserve my right to disagree with you, and that doesn't make me a bad person.

Why would the change of pronoun in that sentence make what I said wrong?

Do you think greater people than us didn't want as individuals what their environments also wanted. Is wanting what you consider to be a decent idea to win over those you perceive as bad ones, in an environment you care about, such a bad thing. I don't feel you think that: Look, you're doing the same.

As a matter of fact, in a few places of this world, we have political systems based around that very concept. It can be messy but it tends to work better than its alternatives. I'm not going to apologize for fighting for what I see fit. I'm intelligent enough to produce good ideas. As I'm sure you are. Let's just have a conversation.

R

[Wynn]

I'll answer this, Wynn. One can argue because of precedents... Most, if not all, of the most absorbing, mystifying, interesting, and exciting of the imaginary worlds ever created in all disciplines of Arts and Entertainment are those that respond to consistent and elegant inner rules. These worlds include some of the great epic poems, novels, operas, films and games that are the forerunners of the MMOs that we, you and I, choose to play today.

I want this inner logic to be present in this game, not just to bust anybody's genitalia (that includes yours,) but rather to add consistency, interest and depth to a world that I would like to visit often in years to come. It was this inner logic and elegance that attracted us all (those who visited it, that is) to Vana'diel and it was no small part of the appeal that kept us anchored there for so many joyful years. It was a world that made sense and felt real and that captured attention and affection, not just because it was fun, but also because it obeyed its own laws with admirable consistency. This is simply the reason why lore is important.

Or do you think that when Tolkien wrote his Lord of Rings tetralogy, or when Rowling wrote her Harry Potter cycle, or when George Lucas chose his sources of inspiration for his Star Wars saga... do you really think they just wrote what came into their heads without some sense of skeletal order for their universes. It's the consistency and inner logic of these worlds that keeps succeeding generations fascinated with their myths.

So we're just asking for the standards of imaginary worlds to be maintained.

R

First bolded quote: You can't argue based on precedent because, in a newly imagined fictional fantasy world, there isn't one. If this were another title based in Vana'diel, I'd agree with you. However, it's not.

Second bolded quote: Of course there is a skeletal order to those imagined worlds...their own skeletal order. That's the point. And it didn't just materialize out of thin air or come carbon copied from something that came before. They each sat down for long periods of time writing, collecting ideas, changing ideas, solidifying concepts. All until they came to a firm understanding of their own fictional universes.

As long as the rules are consistent in their own universe, they are true and believable for that universe. The world of Hydaelyn obeys its own laws with regard to magic. It operates just like the wheel says it does. And that's all it needs to do. Our approval need not apply.

Besides, this argument is extremely silly. Are you really saying you can't possibly fathom how an enormous magical gust of wind could smother/disrupt/damage a fire?

[Starlord]

Let's not fool ourselves, Starlord. It's not like you don't have strong opinions about the game, or that you don't express them vehemently. And all kudos to you for that. I will still reserve my right to disagree with you, and that doesn't make me a bad person.

Why would the change of pronoun in that sentence make what I said wrong?

Do you think greater people than us didn't want as individuals what their environments also wanted. Is wanting what you consider to be a decent idea to win over those you perceive as bad ones, in an environment you care about, such a bad thing. I don't feel you think that: Look, you're doing the same.

As a matter of fact, in a few places of this world, we have political systems based around that very concept. It can be messy but it tends to work better than its alternatives. I'm not going to apologize for fighting for what I see fit. I'm intelligent enough to produce good ideas. As I'm sure you are. Let's just have a conversation.

R

When making an Opinion, saying "we" isn't the really best word to say on a Forum.. then you get the: "Who's this we, you mean YOU want it to be this way" type phrases. But now your starting to become a Lecturer which I don't want at the present time so have fun doing what you do best!

[Starlord]

First bolded quote: You can't argue based on precedent because, in a newly imagined fictional fantasy world, there isn't one. If this were another title based in Vana'diel, I'd agree with you. However, it's not.

Second bolded quote: Of course there is a skeletal order to those imagined worlds...their own skeletal order. That's the point. And it didn't just materialize out of thin air or come carbon copied from something that came before. They each sat down for long periods of time writing, collecting ideas, changing ideas, solidifying concepts. All until they came to a firm understanding of their own fictional universes.

As long as the rules are consistent in their own universe, they are true and believable for that universe. The world of Hydaelyn obeys its own laws with regard to magic. It operates just like the wheel says it does. And that's all it needs to do. Our approval need not apply.

Besides, this argument is extremely silly. Are you really saying you can't possibly fathom how an enormous magical gust of wind could smother/disrupt/damage a fire?

I agree with this 100%

[Rutelor]

Thanks for the quote. I had read it once, and I remember I found it as confusing back then as I found it today. I still think the idea of water as exclusive to cure (which I'm not sure is what the quote means) doesn't contribute to the internal logic of the game's mechanics. What about positive aspects in Earth, or Air?

The whole thing seems like an arbitrary, a-posteriori effort to force-streamline a system that wasn't working anymore within their new plan. To me, it smacks of a roughly handled scalpel. As a matter of fact, we know this to be the case. Nobody conceived this foreshortened, truncated structural scheme of the elements as the foundation for anything, or at the beginning of any designing process. It was an inelegant compromise done on-the-run; it sacrificed balance, and as I have said already many times, inner logic.

At the same time, I'll acknowledge it brought a certain equilibrium to the numbers of spells needed, but also a rather unnecessary symmetry to the classes' actions. Evidently the new development team thought this was desirable. Perhaps future announcements will reveal the sense of harmony that removal seemed to push out. I just hope it wasn't a rushed, 11th-hour decision. I never lamented the end of Shell, but I still do not get the camouflaging of Water as something else.

R

[Rutelor]

Good writers use their imagination and put what they want to put in their story. and not what is "realistic".

I didn't use in this instance, nor do I ever use the word 'realistic' as you are using it, in posts in these forums. I dread it, actually.

So in that we agree.

R

[Rutelor]

When making an Opinion, saying "we" isn't the really best word to say on a Forum.. then you get the: "Who's this we, you mean YOU want it to be this way" type phrases. But now your starting to become a Lecturer which I don't want at the present time so have fun doing what you do best!

In that "we " I wanted to include those other people, starting with the OP, that had argued for a fix of the limping elemental structure (as we perceive it) both in this thread and elsewhere. I was merely trying to defend our perception... In an earlier post on this thread, I had referred to other players and opinions and I wanted to continue in a pluralistic attitude that didn't do exactly what you're accusing me of doing. Make it about myself.

Anyway, you're right... I'm going to finish my BRD AF questline.

R