Removal of Piety and Tenacity for Endwalker

[Awha]

I do wish this game had room for my personalized flare but given the nature of the gcd and weaving of ogcds it does limit the the viability of certain things. Like in WoW and ToR I enjoyed the faster pace and freedom high haste and alacrity builds offered. Though high sks setups just lack the same feel and often just create problems with ability line up and stuff.

Personally I am a fan of the illusion of choice options other games have to offer.

[RyuDragnier]

I do wish this game had room for my personalized flare but given the nature of the gcd and weaving of ogcds it does limit the the viability of certain things. Like in WoW and ToR I enjoyed the faster pace and freedom high haste and alacrity builds offered. Though high sks setups just lack the same feel and often just create problems with ability line up and stuff.

Personally I am a fan of the illusion of choice options other games have to offer.

IMO they wouldn't be able to make skill/spell speed viable unless it exclusively effected oGCD cooldowns. That would entice people to take it, and has it compete with Crit and DH. Have Tenacity increase all healing received, it becomes viable for tanks since it can make things easier on the healers allowing for more DPS from them. Make Piety effect MP costs and healers will want it because it decreases the problems they have with MP and becomes a bit more valuable.

Sadly all of that would require a real rework/rebalancing of the substat system and I'm not sure we'll see that for a few years.

[Defmetal]

If they didn't have bad stats what would even be the point of materia? why not just make the game all crit/det/dh or spell speed as appropriate

[Vahlnir]

If they didn't have bad stats what would even be the point of materia? why not just make the game all crit/det/dh or spell speed as appropriate

I'm of the opinion that there should be no bad stats at all. Tenacity and piety should be worth something.

[kaynide]

I'm of the opinion that there should be no bad stats at all. Tenacity and piety should be worth something.

I think this is the key point. For materia to be useful or on my mind, it needs to do something noticeable. I won’t notice a gain of 1-5% increase in dps or hp as I am super casual. And again, that is on me/no real defense other than apathy on my part.

BUT of it were as noticeable as not wearing an entire piece of my armor (eg difference between full iLv 520ish and without the chest piece), that might be different.

Or alternatively, lower the innate vitality or whatever on gear and require materia to reach current levels of def/hp.

[Deceptus]

I'm of the opinion that there should be no bad stats at all. Tenacity and piety should be worth something.

This is the biggest issue.

SE recognized that Parry was seen as a "bad stat" so they retooled it into Tenacity and. . . didn't change it substantially enough to make it appealing and just created another "bad stat".

And then to top it off . . .SE got rid of the DRK Parry mitigation ability (Dark Dance) Gunbreaker's still have a Parry mitigation CD (Camouflage).

[ForteNightshade]

I'm of the opinion that there should be no bad stats at all. Tenacity and piety should be worth something.

The problem is they likely believe it is worth something in the same sense they still stubbornly cling to the belief healers actually spend a great deal of their time healing. In a vacuum, upwards of 5-10% free mitigation should be somethings tanks not only want but prioritize over damage. Unfortunately, their encounter and job design simply doesn't emphasise this whatsoever. Most bosses, even up to the Savage level, hit for too little damage or have far too infrequent tank busters and both tanks and healers have an abundance of tools to mitigate them that such a stat is rendered pointless.

Put another way, the issue goes far beyond TEN/PIE suck and is more a product of their poor damage scaling.

[Seraphor]

I'd rather they weren't, but obviously it's a matter of fine tuning the balance a bit.

Even now I'm of the mind that there's very little tangible difference between Tenacity and Determination. You're talking about ~0.2% dps loss to the party as a whole, and I think player skill and human error have a much larger impact, but there's the "every point of damage is a bonus" argument which can't be ignored either.

TEN is currently 75% as effective as DET:

If you have 2500 Determination you will have a 10% DPS and HPS gain.
If you have 2500 Tenacity you will have a 7.5% DPS, HPS and Damage Reduction gain.

Maybe if it was buffed to 80%, it would be closer to DETs damage increase, while also having a slightly better contribution to damage reduction.

While that 5% doesn't sound like much, I think it's largely an matter of perception. 75% or three-quarters sounds a lot less than 80%, which is pretty much 100% anyway, to some people's non-rational weighing of statistics.


Piety will depend entirely on Healer MP consumption in Endwalker, with healers likely getting yet another rework, it's hard to say whether or not it will be viable in Endwalker.

[Mikey_R]

you can take a level 80 sam and use midare on a level 1 mob. you will hit for the same damage it does to a level 80. which then shows that a level 80 boss has the exact same defence as a level 1 lady bug.. the only difference is the level 80 boss hasa bazillion more hp..

This might just be my way of thinking, but I do not see the issue here. You essentially have a 'max damage' for each enemy, that being their maximum HP, anything above that is superfluous. However, whether or not you give enemies defences or not is irrelevant. You still want to get stronger as you level, you still want to see your damage increasing as you level, as you fight harder max level enemies as you gear up. You control how long a fight takes based by adjusting the HP of the enemy, by adding defence, all you really do is cut down the HP of the boss. It is going to take the same amount of time regardless, so why bother trying to balance around defensive stats as well?

You can't even compare to previous FFs where you might have an enemy that is really strong against physical and really weak to magic, or vice versa as that wouldn't work well here where you have physical jobs, magical jobs and some that mix and match. You do get enemies that have resistances to one or the other, or interact with them differently, but in those cases there is always another enemy to hit so that you don't get a damage penalty for no reason.

At the end of the day, does it really matter if I do 60K to a level 80 and 100K to a level 1? The only change it would bring is being able to unsync content even faster than you currently can, but I don't think this is a justified reason for adding defence to mobs.

[Mikey_R]

I'm of the opinion that there should be no bad stats at all. Tenacity and piety should be worth something.

Tenacity and Piety ARE worth something, just not worth enough to bring them over other stats. However, I would make a proposal that might seem quite radical, however, it might (hopefully) fix this issue with tenacity/piety.

The basis behind this idea is that Tenacity/Piety/Direct Hit were intended to be stats for Tanks/Healers/DPS exclusively, so I would make it so that this is actually the case. Tanks and Healers get no benefit from Direct Hit, Healers/DPS get no benefit from Tenacity and Tanks/DPS get no benefit from Piety. So, to list off the changes:

1. Main one, give Piety some additional benefits other than just increased MP regen. More damage, more healing (in the same way Tenacity improves everything for a tank, Piety should increase everything for a healer)

2. Remove Determination as a stat. Most people do not like boring stats and all Determination is is a weaker STR/DEX/INT/MND, I would class that as quite boring, though others might disagree. This then gives each role 3 stats to chose from when melding, Crit, SS and Ten/Piety/DH. The issue that Tanks/Healers had were they essentially had 5 substats to choose from which, lets be honest, noone gave those stats a thought when it came to melding, except in some niche circumstances, however, by giving each role 3 stats, you will meld all 3 stats.

3. Have SS affect SOME oGCDs. Things like a tank's defensive cooldowns should not be affected. Fights are designed around these cooldowns having certain ... cooldowns, so speeding them up might cause issues. Movement related oGCDs should also not be subject to a cooldown reduction, however, things that help your rotation flow well should be subject to this, for example, Monk's Perfect Balance. I don't know if this is an issue currently, but in theory, if you are too fast, PB won't line up with the rotation nicely, so you either delay it or use it suboptimally. Of course, it has been mentioned in the past how this can screw up damage windows (see 3b).

3b. This is a bit of a tangent to address the damage windows from point 3. Since everything is multiplicative, stacking buffs is always going to be better. A solution to this would be to make damage multipliers additive, so, again with monk, stacking brotherhood (5%) and Riddle of Fire (25%) would give a 30% damage buff as opposed to the current 31.25%. It still incentivises use of the big damage cooldowns during these windows, however it lessens the impact on DPS should things misalign. I know this point could be controversial and there are probably pros and cons both ways, however, I believe it does provide a solution to the predicament of oGCDs lining up.

4. This one, I admittedly have not thought through as it only occurred to me whilst writing this post. This has to do with SS. With the changes outlined above, SS is something that is going to be melded. I do not currently know the difference in speed between, say, the slowest DRG and the fasted DRG, however, dependant on that factor, some might not want to have the fastest DRG and would instead prefer to keep it slower. So, some stat that gives the benefits of attacking quicker...without actually attacking quicker. To try and explain better, say you attack every 2 seconds at base for 100 potency every time, in 10 seconds you do 50 potency per second. However, speed it up to 1 attack per second, since you attack faster you now do 100 potency per second. This stat would keep you attacking at once every 2 seconds, however giving you the extra damage to still allow you to do 100 potency per second. This is obviously very simplified and I suspect has issues when you start putting it into practice with high potency attacks mixed in. Regardless, there should be a stat that will allow you to forgo SS if you wanted to, for ease of play.

For stat weights, what I envisioned was, Crit is still king, the role specific is next and SS is last. The only worry is 3 stats might not be enough? However, we can go a different route, this one will be short.

Make Det the DPS only stats, then every role will have Crit/DH/SS and finally one of either Tenacity, Piety or Determination. Reasoning here being, Tenacity makes tanks more tank like, piety (with above changes) makes healers better healers, so Det makes DPS do more damage. With Det being taken off of tanks and healers, they could make the effect much more potent than it is now as it is a stats that only increases damage.

So, that is 2 proposed changes that could be done with stats that can make tenacity/piety desirable to meld..by basically reducing the choices roles have to meld in the first place.