Removal of Piety and Tenacity for Endwalker

[Ultimatecalibur]

I was a newbie during the strength meta was it really that bad? Or was it roughly as bad as having a tank not use cooldowns? As a healer it does annoy me when tanks do not use cooldowns but I would not say it was stressful.

A Str tank had about 25% more hp than a melee dps with a better def/mdef. Most tank busters were designed for Vit tanks using a single cooldown so required a cooldown+shield for Str tanks.

it never really changes that much though.. you can be level 80 withcritas high as it'll possibly go. but you'll still land just as many crits as you would against say a level 50 with just a few hundred crit... we tested this once. against ARR S-Ranks. where you'd expect a level 80 player with thousands of crit to crit almost constantly....

You shouldn't have expected that, because all stats including secondaries scale with, and have always scaled with, character level not target level.

A level 50 i130, a level 60 i270, a level 70 i400 and a level 80 i530 are all the same tier of gear and have similar Crit and Direct Hit rates which are higher than that of a level 50 i50, a level 60 i150, a level 70 i290 and a level 80 i430.

Put a level 80 in the same gear as a level 50 and you will see the level 80 actually criting less while doing far more damage on average.

the numbers get bigger but the outcome stays largely the same. which is why many say they feel worthless.

Comparing level 50 crit rates with level 80 crit rates is disengenous. If you want to see output changes compare level cap entry ilevels to level cap max ilevels. This is actually very noticeable as illustrated by the Alliance Raids.

[Awha]

A Str tank had about 25% more hp than a melee dps with a better def/mdef. Most tank busters were designed for Vit tanks using a single cooldown so required a cooldown+shield for Str tanks.



You shouldn't have expected that, because all stats including secondaries scale with, and have always scaled with, character level not target level.

A level 50 i130, a level 60 i270, a level 70 i400 and a level 80 i530 are all the same tier of gear and have similar Crit and Direct Hit rates which are higher than that of a level 50 i50, a level 60 i150, a level 70 i290 and a level 80 i430.

Put a level 80 in the same gear as a level 50 and you will see the level 80 actually criting less while doing far more damage on average.


Comparing level 50 crit rates with level 80 crit rates is disengenous. If you want to see output changes compare level cap entry ilevels to level cap max ilevels. This is actually very noticeable as illustrated by the Alliance Raids.

That does not seem overly stressful. Granted I was a lowbie back then but given how healing is now it does not seem that bad. It seems like it upped the level of engagement of healers in raids.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

it never really changes that much though.. you can be level 80 withcritas high as it'll possibly go. but you'll still land just as many crits as you would against say a level 50 with just a few hundred crit... we tested this once. against ARR S-Ranks. where you'd expect a level 80 player with thousands of crit to crit almost constantly....

the numbers get bigger but the outcome stays largely the same. which is why many say they feel worthless.

That's by design, and good design at that.

Because if not, we would have hit 100% crit rate by the end of HW if stats kept the same scaling as a level 50. It's important to make stats worth less per point as you level up, since the amount of substats on pieces keeps rising in tandem. You can say they 'feel' worthless, but all you have to do is compare crt/dh rates of an entire group of 530s vs a group of 430s to quickly see how big of a boost those substats are giving you.

The issue here is that you're taking the stats at face value, rather than how they translate into %s in the game's engine. A better way to look at stats is not at base numerals, but rather imagine the stats instead say CRT+<x>%. A current 530 piece would say CRT+2.1% instead of +489. A level 60 wearing their 270 shire piece would also say CRT +2.1% due to their 129 CRT being worth the same to a level 60 as that 489 is to a level 80, but if equipped by a level 80, it would be updated to reflect its true value in relation to your character level by saying CRT + 0.45%

The reason they don't do it is a simple one, because most people won't bother to test how much more often they're critting as their CRT levels up to ever notice the stat scaling squish the substat value. Whereas when they're leveling up and they get a new ilvl 273 piece, they might be wondering why it suddenly only gives +1.9%, and continue noticing how it keeps dropping as they get closer to the next 'cap' milestone before radically jumping up again, only to repeat the process again.

The new Nier raid for example, I've walked in with tank gear item level lower than the other tanks.
More often then not I end up taking top enmity due to the direct hit bonuses and avoidance of Tenacity.
I don't even claim to be a GOOD tank but somehow generate more enmity than people who play nothing but tank with higher item level.

DH is such a small part of your enmity generation that I can pretty much guarantee you were taking aggro because you did a better rotation than the other tanks, not for any stat-based reason. Even max melding DH in current tank BiS's (Roughly around 1400-1500 total), you have around a 15% chance to DH, as shown here: https://www.akhmorning.com/allagan-studies/stats/dh/. Which is like, 2%-4% dps increase with expected RNG. The actual damage increase you'd have over a maxed TEN build would be even smaller since TEN does give increased damage output.

You also fail to realize just how bad many players you meet in the DF are. the difference between being a 'good' tank and encountering bad ones can be a factor of several thousand dps. Just because someone is a higher ilvl and only plays that role doesn't mean they're going to be good at it. Stats are irrelevant if the person behind them can't utilize them to their potential.

[Ultimatecalibur]

DH is such a small part of your enmity generation that I can pretty much guarantee you were taking aggro because you did a better rotation than the other tanks, not for any stat-based reason. Even max melding DH in current tank BiS's (Roughly around 1400-1500 total), you have around a 15% chance to DH, as shown here: https://www.akhmorning.com/allagan-studies/stats/dh/. Which is like, 2%-4% dps increase with expected RNG. The actual damage increase you'd have over a maxed TEN build would be even smaller since TEN does give increased damage output.

+1440 Direct Hit (i.e, 1814 Direct hit) would be a 23.9 Direct hit rate which is a 5.975% damage increase on average. The same amount of Tencity starting from minimum would be a 4.3% damage increase. The difference in damage between melding only Direct Hit and only Tenacity to a theoretical set that only has Crit/Det would be the Tenacity build doing 1.6% less damage and taking 4.3% less damage. Whether or not the other tank has melded anything appropriate is actually a bigger factor than what is melded.

[Nethereal]

Yes, main tanks do usually dps with tank stance on... Northward, away from the party.
Which is the normal spot I go to when I have the enmity.

Who said anything about main tanks? Your exact words were:

The new Nier raid for example, I've walked in with tank gear item level lower than the other tanks.
More often then not I end up taking top enmity due to the direct hit bonuses and avoidance of Tenacity.
I don't even claim to be a GOOD tank but somehow generate more enmity than people who play nothing but tank with higher item level.

The only thing being insinuated here is that you are unintentionally taking aggro off the main tanks there's nothing here about actually tanking not to mention main tanking, don't strawman people like that.

[linayar]

To be honest the way the game is designed you only need 1 stat. I-Level.

While true, it's still nice to have some idea of what's going on "under the hood." Not that FFXIV is very forthcoming with that information, but still, showing a few (like four) understandable stats can still feel better than just a single item level, even if you still have the item level that you really care about. Plus, like I said, it allows them to keep materia melding if they want (although they don't need to).

[Timmyftw]

Who said anything about main tanks?
The only thing being insinuated here is that you are unintentionally taking aggro off the main tanks there's nothing here about actually tanking not to mention main tanking, don't strawman people like that.

Take your own advice when you mentioned, parsing numbers, spinning bosses, and now make more assumptions.
Also I never said I was taking aggro unintentionally, it's very much intentional, otherwise I'd turn tank stance off.
If you maintain top enmity, you are the main tank now. That is just how it is.

Regardless, the consensus seems to be,
Tenacity and Piety should give damage bonuses higher or equal to a dps stat like Direct Hit, Critical, or Determination,
Otherwise we'll never meld Tenacity or Piety given the choice at end game.
Or rip out the whole materia system and overhaul it.

[Kes13a]

Not exactly, people that want healers who 'know how to heal' means they know how the basic priority of their role should function.
I guess if you really want to think about it, the healer priority is:
Preventative Action -> Reduction Measures -> Active healing

*snip*

However, the idea of the preventative measure is also why people can dog farm Jade Stoa EX Unsynced without a healer - we just do enough DPS that we can melt the boss before facing enough mechanics that would have to be healed through if we trade a healer for more DPS. In this manner, we can 'prevent' a wipe from happening in the first place with sufficient DPS rather than bring a healer to 'reduce' the potential chance of wiping by healing through the mechanics.

sorry, I was just replying to the person who seemed think no one needs healing any more so healers should dps as opposed to healing.

I agree, when not healing, I shouldnt be standing around waiting for damage, and I do not. for one thats kinda dull. as I said previously, when I am able, I dps, as much as possible. either way, I run pie and det, because the occasional big heal, in my thinking, doesnt make crit more worthwhile, since it relied on rng, and I am pretty sure we all know how well rng works in games.

bottom line is, I am hesitant to think or believe that once a stat is removed, that devs replace it with anything more useful or anything better. I rode in that rodeo in WoW. things added, removed, re-added, and the end result is nothing really changed, was just more hoops to get to any kind of efficient play style.

[Deceptus]

That does not seem overly stressful. Granted I was a lowbie back then but given how healing is now it does not seem that bad. It seems like it upped the level of engagement of healers in raids.

It bears reminding at that time healers didn't have the complete suites of healing they do now.

[Ultimatecalibur]

bottom line is, I am hesitant to think or believe that once a stat is removed, that devs replace it with anything more useful or anything better. I rode in that rodeo in WoW. things added, removed, re-added, and the end result is nothing really changed, was just more hoops to get to any kind of efficient play style.

We've actually seen failure stats replaced by better things already in FFXIV twice. Direct Hit replaced Accuracy (which only functioned as a "you must be this tall to ride" stat in ARR and HW) and Tenacity replaced Parry (which only influenced the proc rate of a mitigation format that only triggered on a portion of physical attacks). Despite the flack Tenacity gets it is a massive improvement over Parry.