A thought about Zenos as we move in to Endwalker

[Kesey]

Something to remember is that Zenos is the PC (Azem)'s foil - their equal and opposite.

To be more precise, the WOL and Zenos are setup to be potential foils, but two characters aren't "foiled" until one character sees the similarities between themselves and the potential foil and then chooses to be different based upon this evidence. So the WOL and Zenos haven't reached that point. And because this is a video game and every individual player is the WOL causing them to be a generic silent protagonist, the change has to come from Zenos as he will have the greater share of the dialogue.

(This also speaks to the bigger issue of too many redemption arc enemies, but what can you do when significant change has to come from the hero or villain and the hero is a silent protagonist representing a generalized real life player?)

[Lauront]

To be more precise, the WOL and Zenos are setup to be potential foils, but two characters aren't "foiled" until one character sees the similarities between themselves and the potential foil and then chooses to be different based upon this evidence. So the WOL and Zenos haven't reached that point. And because this is a video game and every individual player is the WOL causing them to be a generic silent protagonist, the change has to come from Zenos as he will have the greater share of the dialogue.

(This also speaks to the bigger issue of too many redemption arc enemies, but what can you do when significant change has to come from the hero or villain and the hero is a silent protagonist representing a generalized real life player?)

That's why I think it doesn't preclude them using the soul shards to demonstrate how certain differences in circumstances and/or choices can have very different outcomes. With that said, they could employ it not so much as your typical redemption arc, but just to underscore the whole "foil" point and provide a plot device for him to turn against Fandaniel, perhaps to his own eventual detriment.

[Vyrerus]

We don't actually know if Zenos's Resonance was gained from Krile or from other Echo users. He'd already been through the process, before he put Fordola through it, after all. They did have Krile for a while, but it was only explicit for Fordola.

As far as the cool powers he showcased when vs. Gaius/Estinien, those are most likely his own powers. He already did far greater things in our own fights with him before, such as created tangible aetherial copies of himself that perform attacks, and evoking lightless flames. On top of that, he mantled Shinryu using the Resonance, and also told us that we could do it too, if we mastered the Echo. Elidibus once told us that if we mastered the gift that we would no longer be enemies, because we would view things as they do. By mastering the Echo, Zenos became an Ascian in all but name.

As for the idea that he's part of Azem or from Azem's ancient past... well, they already set up something that's going to connect him to the Ancients' Legacy, but I'm more of the mind that he may have been an attempt at creating unsundered life post sundering. A whole soul, like the dragons and Ancients.

As far as a possible redemption arc goes... don't forget that even if they Golbez'd him, in the original story of IV before the After Smears, Golbez left with FuSoYa on the second moon, to travel with the slumbering Lunarians to find a new planet to call their own. Golbez had killed entire nations in his pursuit of the crystals of Light and Dark, while under Zemus's influence. In the rather unlikely event that we tried to redeem Zenos for whatever reason, he'd have much the same ending. Either he'd die, or he'd have to leave the world behind. Though if they could sucker in a reference to Golbez attempting to use a holy crystal to reveal Zeromus's true form, only for it to fail because of the evil in his heart and mind... that'd be slick.

[Kesey]

As far as the cool powers he showcased when vs. Gaius/Estinien, those are most likely his own powers. He already did far greater things in our own fights with him before, such as created tangible aetherial copies of himself that perform attacks, and evoking lightless flames. On top of that, he mantled Shinryu using the Resonance, and also told us that we could do it too, if we mastered the Echo. Elidibus once told us that if we mastered the gift that we would no longer be enemies, because we would view things as they do. By mastering the Echo, Zenos became an Ascian in all but name.

As for the idea that he's part of Azem or from Azem's ancient past... well, they already set up something that's going to connect him to the Ancients' Legacy, but I'm more of the mind that he may have been an attempt at creating unsundered life post sundering. A whole soul, like the dragons and Ancients.

I don't disagree that echo mastery won't give more powers, but I think the inference is more along the lines of master the echo > remember every detail about the Ancient's past > change to the personality of your Ancient self > then Ascian arrogance dictates you'd be beside yourself not to join their cause. So if you knew the Ascian's full story you wouldn't stand in their way.

This was Emet's gamble in Shadowbringers, showing the WOL Amaurot. If the light of the wardens won out he got the rejoining. If we used the echo to remember our ancient self we'd know the whole story and switch sides. In Emet's mind he was going to win either way. The only element Emet couldn't account for was that you were Azem specifically and could rejoin with ghost Ardbert to harness the light against him.

[Lauront]

Although I agree that he was hoping for the MC to either come to his side, or to proceed with the Rejoining otherwise, I don't think he was banking on a certain victory. There is too much set up to suggest he devised an entire alternative route if you proved worthy and that he was willing to take that gamble. Even to the point of devising a means to put Elidibus to rest if he fell. And I don't interpret it so much as arrogance, as the sheer strength of their nostalgia for the world as it originally was. Emet in particular had vivid memory of it, and re-awakened Loghrif and Mitron remembered it as if it had just happened when their memory was restored via the crystals. So when it does work, it seems to work particularly well. The exceptions being Fandaniel, with his weak crystal, and Azem, because theirs apparently lacks much in the way of memories beyond the incantation. Nonetheless, he left it with Hythlodaeus, a shade of his creation. He was aware it'd be a challenge.

Apparently he is also clearer in the Japanese version about which soul the MC has (there is discussion of it here - bearing in mind they can readily identify Convocation shards to ascend them, this makes all the more sense.) The ambiguity is more around Ardbert's shard and the act of rejoining with it, but he chose to proceed even then and even after the Exarch summoned the champions. I don't interpret any of this as arrogance, especially with the plan C (?) in place. I interpret it as him being tired of it all and staking everything on this particular fight to determine the outcome. I think it's particularly clear from this. The way I see it, he wanted a fight to the death to see if the MC could prove worthy in his eyes of carrying his plan C.

Regardless, the point about the Resonance is that it is a synthetic Echo. Whether one chooses to believe Zenos's was designed off the template of Krile's or not, its synthetic nature means that any inference from Zenos's abilities (and specifically, soul identification) and those of certain ancients (e.g. Hythlodaeus) needs to be tempered by that fact.

However, Zenos wielded some very specifically Ascian powers, like Rift teleportation, much as Elidibus wielded some very specific powers of his. It stands to reason that the body, as a vessel, served as a repository for memory of the techniques which each could draw on.

We don't actually know if Zenos's Resonance was gained from Krile or from other Echo users. He'd already been through the process, before he put Fordola through it, after all. They did have Krile for a while, but it was only explicit for Fordola.

As far as the cool powers he showcased when vs. Gaius/Estinien, those are most likely his own powers. He already did far greater things in our own fights with him before, such as created tangible aetherial copies of himself that perform attacks, and evoking lightless flames. On top of that, he mantled Shinryu using the Resonance, and also told us that we could do it too, if we mastered the Echo. Elidibus once told us that if we mastered the gift that we would no longer be enemies, because we would view things as they do. By mastering the Echo, Zenos became an Ascian in all but name.

As for the idea that he's part of Azem or from Azem's ancient past... well, they already set up something that's going to connect him to the Ancients' Legacy, but I'm more of the mind that he may have been an attempt at creating unsundered life post sundering. A whole soul, like the dragons and Ancients.

As far as a possible redemption arc goes... don't forget that even if they Golbez'd him, in the original story of IV before the After Smears, Golbez left with FuSoYa on the second moon, to travel with the slumbering Lunarians to find a new planet to call their own. Golbez had killed entire nations in his pursuit of the crystals of Light and Dark, while under Zemus's influence. In the rather unlikely event that we tried to redeem Zenos for whatever reason, he'd have much the same ending. Either he'd die, or he'd have to leave the world behind. Though if they could sucker in a reference to Golbez attempting to use a holy crystal to reveal Zeromus's true form, only for it to fail because of the evil in his heart and mind... that'd be slick.

Not going to lie, when I recalled that bit about the departing to the stars, it warmed me back up to the idea.

[lycropath]

Zenos's barrier was also a thing he did in the bossfight in Ala Mhigo, when he's meditating before doing "Storm, Swell, Sword" the barrier has the same graphic as the one he uses when fighting Estinien and Gaius.

[Bright-Flower]

Do we have confirmation on WHEN Zenos got his resonance? Do we know if it was DURING stormblood or something he may have had before it?

[MoofiaBossVal]

Do we have confirmation on WHEN Zenos got his resonance? Do we know if it was DURING stormblood or something he may have had before it?

He never exhibits the power before Ala Mhigo. I'd imagine that if he had the power, the WoL wouldn't have been able to get a surprise attack on him that broke a horn off of his helmet.

[Bright-Flower]

Hard to say because in the first two fights we weren't enough of a challenge for him to need to tap into it anyway, as he easily beats us regardless.

[Vyrerus]

Hard to say because in the first two fights we weren't enough of a challenge for him to need to tap into it anyway, as he easily beats us regardless.

Actually the first two fights bear a few striking differences between each other.

In the first fight he uses only his standard Garlean made katana, and it starts as a 3 v 1. Alisaie and Pipin are there until the first Concentravitity. When the WoL is still able to stand afterwards, Zenos continues the fight. He exclusively uses lightning and wind katana summons to put out AOEs, with the occasional dash to use, "Lightless Spark." as a huge conal cleave. Despite having no aura, our attacks miss often and only deal 5% of the damage they are normally capable of dealing.

In the second fight it starts as a 2 v 6, and that's with the initial ambush having removed 3~4 of the Garlean troops around Zenos. Yugiri is waylaid by the rest while we contend with Zenos directly, inspite of the cutscene starting with us attacking him from behind. Eventually Zenos decides we've earned the right for him to draw the Ame-no-Habakiri, which prompts Yugiri's rage. She ignores the rest of his remaining Garlean troops, and Limit Break 3's Zenos directly, but because she is not the WoL, it only deals 14,000 damage, roughly 5~8% of what an LB3 at the time was capable of, and later on in the Ghimlyt Dark it's roughly 1/100th.

So Zenos draws the katana gifted to him by Yotsuyu, but it's strange. He doesn't merely draw a new katana. He casts a spell called, "Unsheathe." He rears back, a blinding light radiating from his chest, quickly subsumed into him, with purple/blue aether trails, and this animation is quickly followed by an explosion most similar to Forked Lightning combined with a meteor tower explosion. The resultant shockwave kills the rest of his own men, incapacitates Yugiri, and brings the WoL to their knees. After this, Zenos has the blood and black aura coursing all around him, like flames of pure violence with red lightning arcing about his figure. "Well done, Beast. You've earned the right to look on the Ame-no-Habakiri. Let us put you to the proof. Give me something to remember!"

Then our damage goes down to being 1/13th of what we had been capable of until then. Depending on how your last few crits spike before Yugiri LB3s him, he'll have been down in the low to upper 20%s. His health returns to full. After using Art of the Sword against you, mixed with Lightless Flames and Dark Reflections, he ends it with Concentravitity, which knocks you down to sub 1000 HP and leaves you down for the count.


This is the same aura he has for the entirety of his fight with you in Ala Mhigo. It should also be noted, that even though it was triggered in the second fight by him using, "Unsheathe." In his penultimate fight with you, it doesn't come from the Ame-no-Habakiri. It comes from Zenos. When he puts up his barrier and starts to channel his energy in the center of the conflux of his swords, he actually throws each sword into the ground. Instead of being aetherial replicas, sword egis if you will, they are the actual articles that you beat on for the DPS check. He reclaims them as he triggers the attack, "Storm, Swell, Sword."

So, suffice to say, though it's a bit obfuscated he does use his Resonance during the second fight. We just didn't know what it was, at the time.