A thought about Zenos as we move in to Endwalker

[Embran]

To preface, I just want to say that this is all speculation. I’m sure there will be people who are eager to poke holes in this, and that’s fine. I’m still on the fence about all of it myself, so I’m not looking to defend my position, it’s mostly just thinking out loud.

Anyway — I just wanted to talk about Zenos, since I haven’t seen much discussion about some things that happen in 5.1 which always seemed pretty important to me but apparently not many other people thought much of it.

In the fight between Gaius, Estinien and Zenos, Zenos uses what looks to be Ascian magicks from a dark blade to a barrier similar to what Emet used against us to even the straight up signature Ascian teleport that utilizes the Rift. As far as I can remember, he didn’t use these things at all during SB. And I don’t think his being a Resonant necessarily gave him these abilities either, so I want to touch on that. Though I’ll say right now that it’s possible Elidibus using his body left Zenos in control with some Ascian powers once he left it.

At the end of SB, Varis and Elidibus talk about Zenos. Varis mentions something along the lines of Zenos being the Ascians’ “failed experiment,” which implies that he was changed in ways other than the Resonant as Zenos took it upon himself to get the Echo. So whatever was done to Zenos by the Ascians likely happened as he was growing up. We don’t know much about his childhood save the fact that his mother died, he had no friends and his father neglected him.

So, I wonder. Emet kept Azem’s memory crystal a secret from the others, and so Lahabrea and Elidibus were never able to find a piece of Azem from any of the other shards and give them their memories so that they could enlist their help. With Elidibus’ fascination for scheming and Lahabrea’s penchant for experimentation, is it possible that they took it upon themselves to try and “manufacture” their own Azem without the help of Emet and his secret memory crystal? Zenos is having memories of the Final Days, after all. Not visions, but memories, he calls them. That must imply that he witnessed them in some fashion.

In SHB, Ardbert said that he was irresistibly drawn to us for reasons he couldn’t explain and we learn towards the end that it’s because our souls are linked. Similarly, Zenos seems drawn to us in the same way, so perhaps there is a connection there as well — thematically, if Zenos is meant to be the Ascians’ attempt at creating their own Azem, it could stress the importance of “friendship” in Endwalker, which is a common theme throughout the game. The WOL is who they are by virtue of the friends we’ve made along the way, and Zenos is who he is by virtue of the friends he never had. It would stress how easily we could have been like him without our allies there to support us or hold us accountable when needed.

Like I said, it’s just me thinking out loud and I’m sure people will be eager to rip this apart. I’m not exactly married to the idea, myself.

[Kesey]

Maybe it isn't as complicated as posted above.

Since we know that Azem has friends and followers based on the all the ancient history of the cultures on the source, it stands to reason that the soul of Zenos could just be one of those followers--giving them the connection.

Also SE is drawing pretty heavily on FFIV lore for this coming expansion so Zenos might be connected by being Azem's brother and rival like Golbez was to Cecil.

[Embran]

Maybe it isn't as complicated as posted above.

Since we know that Azem has friends and followers based on the all the ancient history of the cultures on the source, it stands to reason that the soul of Zenos could just be one of those followers--giving them the connection.

Also SE is drawing pretty heavily on FFIV lore for this coming expansion so Zenos might be connected by being Azem's brother and rival like Golbez was to Cecil.

I agree, and the easiest answer is usually the actual one. As fun as I think the theory is, I'm not really banking on it being true. Too many "what ifs" need to line up for that. Whatever the case may be, I only hope that Zenos has some sort of connection to the WOL that makes their relationship a bit more interesting.

[Enkidoh]

I just chalked it down to Zenos, being now a Resonant and having had to body-surf Ascian style for an extended period before being able to regain his body, is now becoming like an Ascian himself (it's also possible Elidibus left some lingering 'Ascian aether' behind when he had to hurridly vacate the premises due to Zenos-in-a-Centurion's-skin showing up and forcing him out of it, aether Zenos was then able to draw on via his Resonance - remember, the whole point of the Resonant Project was to give Garleans the ability to manipulate aether/use magic).

It could also just be "this attack looks cool, impressive and evil" and has no actual lore connection, which is often the case during many scenes and battles - rule of cool definetely applies.

[Fenral]

Enkidoh, linking out to TV Tropes is Chaotic Good, at best, but Lawful Evil at worst.

That aside, I do wonder if there's something to the Golbez parallels. Friendly reminder: while the whole Zemus thing was kind of a cop-out as far as agency goes, Golbez lived.

This largely depends on who is used as a sacrifice to get there, but it would be amazing if we somehow landed in a Zenos redemption arc.

[Theodric]

I'd rather see antagonists redeemed rather than outright villains. It wouldn't sit right with me for Zenos to be FFXIV's version of 'Golbez'. We already had ample opportunity to have Regula, Varis or both be Pureblood Garleans who we fought against but eventually sided with out of necessity against a bigger threat pulling the strings behind the scenes. Zenos has been described by Yoshi-P himself as being completely without redeeming qualities. To choose such a character to redeem over those with greater nuance and depth would make for a bland conclusion, I feel.

I'd much prefer to see him exploited by Fandaniel as a convenient tool and unceremoniously killed off once he outlives his usefulness. If his plan is to absorb Zodiark - or Hydaelyn - then having Zenos prove too arrogant and weak in the face of an Elder Primal would be a pretty satisfying end, I'd say!

I'd say Varis was the closest thing to 'Golbez' so far. They both have similar features, imposing armour and a commanding presence.

[Lauront]

I've had rather similar thoughts (here and here), although mine tended closer towards Emet trying to re-create something approximating Azem, using his power over the Underworld to migrate a few non-Source shards of Azem into Zenos.

With that said, he's not a character I particularly care about, so my hope is he will die in EW, for good.

Regarding the dialogue with Varis, the EN version does give that impression, but in the French (and I believe, the Japanese) version Elidibus refers to it as Varis using him as a guinea pig:

Varis zos Galvus : Zenos est donc tombé ? …
= “Zenos has fallen…?”

??? : Sa Majesté serait-elle attristée par la mort de son fils ?
= “Is his Majesty saddened by the death of his son?”

Varis zos Galvus : Hmpf ! Pourquoi le serais-je ?
= “Hmph! And why would I be?”

Elidibus : Oh, quel homme impitoyable ! Avoir sacrifié votre fils légitime et vous en être servi comme d'un cobaye ne vous cause donc aucun remords ?
= “Oh, what a ruthless man! Having sacrificed your legitimate son and having used him like a guinea pig doesn’t cause you any remorse?”

Varis zos Galvus : Zenos n'a jamais eu l'étoffe d'un empereur. Il était aveuglé par sa soif de plaisirs personnels…
= “Zenos never had the makings of an emperor. He was too blinded by his thirst for personal pleasures…”

By this I get the impression that Varis wasn't too happy having Aulus around in close proximity but was willing to see the results of his research from a distance. Which seems especially plausible, with the research spreading to other parts of the Empire (as far as the 4th Legion's territories, given that Misija becomes resonant.)

I'd rather see antagonists redeemed rather than outright villains. It wouldn't sit right with me for Zenos to be FFXIV's version of 'Golbez'. We already had ample opportunity to have Regula, Varis or both be Pureblood Garleans who we fought against but eventually sided with out of necessity against a bigger threat pulling the strings behind the scenes. Zenos has been described by Yoshi-P himself as being completely without redeeming qualities. To choose such a character to redeem over those with greater nuance and depth would make for a bland conclusion, I feel.

I'd much prefer to see him exploited by Fandaniel as a convenient tool and unceremoniously killed off once he outlives his usefulness. If his plan is to absorb Zodiark - or Hydaelyn - then having Zenos prove too arrogant and weak in the face of an Elder Primal would be a pretty satisfying end, I'd say!

I'd say Varis was the closest thing to 'Golbez' so far. They both have similar features, imposing armour and a commanding presence.

I imagine Fandaniel has a surprise in store for him that he will be incapable of besting. At this point, with the trailer dialogue, I am rather hoping for Emet-Selch as the unexpected ally. I just don't care enough about Zenos to want to see such a thing out of him. His obsession with the WoL may well serve to frustrate Fandaniel's plans to an extent, and that might be why Yoshi is stressing how he views the WoL as a "friend", but eh... enough. If they do it, I just pray that it doesn't overstay its welcome... maybe he can also vanish into outer space.

I just chalked it down to Zenos, being now a Resonant and having had to body-surf Ascian style for an extended period before being able to regain his body, is now becoming like an Ascian himself (it's also possible Elidibus left some lingering 'Ascian aether' behind when he had to hurridly vacate the premises due to Zenos-in-a-Centurion's-skin showing up and forcing him out of it, aether Zenos was then able to draw on via his Resonance - remember, the whole point of the Resonant Project was to give Garleans the ability to manipulate aether/use magic).

It could also just be "this attack looks cool, impressive and evil" and has no actual lore connection, which is often the case during many scenes and battles - rule of cool definetely applies.

Sharing the body alone would suffice, I think. Elidibus was, after all, able to draw on Zenos's own techniques through doing that.

[Cilia]

Something to remember is that Zenos is the PC (Azem)'s foil - their equal and opposite.

Thus while the idea of Zenos being some long-lost reincarnated friend is appealing considering what we know about Azem is nice, it's not one I'm putting much stock in because it would break that paradigm. Zenos is... a newly-born soul, perhaps fresh as can be, as opposed to the PC being the heritor of an Ancient's soul.

The "equal and opposite" even continues into Endwalker: as revealed to people who paid close attention in Shadowbringers' finale, Azem is represented by the Sun, which appears both in an alchemical symbol on their memory stone and as the glyph used to summon aid before going against Elidibus-as-Warrior of Light. Zenos, on the other hand, is pursuing Zodiark and as per 5.5's trailer will be awaiting us in his purported prison: the Moon.

Tarot stuff. Among other things Sun is a card representing optimism and triumph, while Moon represents chaos and madness. Themes.

I'm not exactly for a "Zenos Redemption Arc," but I wouldn't be opposed to one if they did it well. Problem is he's already flat-out stated he has no interest in making amends or changing his ways, fully embracing evil for the sake of his own selfish goals. Based on what we know of him we could - at best - temporarily bend him to our will with the promise of giving him an exhilarating duel to the death later, but even that would be cast aside once all obstacles to his desire are removed. And given his apparent desire is not just to battle to the death (again) but to have us harness Hydaelyn and Zodiark's power, respectively, beforehand...

Finally, as I recall from the presentation unlike Shadowbringers focusing on moral complexity, Endwalker is going to try to focus on sheer epicness. (Epicosity? Either way, already apparent in 5.5 as we release Tiamat of the First Brood from her imprisonment and she curses the Ascians as evil, and nobody bothers to correct her; then we assault the amalj'aa homeland with her at our backs to kill a shoddy knockoff Bahamut.) As such I'm not expecting either Zenos or Danny Boy to have more complicated goals than what they've stated - getting another duel to the death and committing omnicide, respectively. Even if they do get some sympathy from the audience (if not the characters in-story), intentionally or otherwise, I'm not expecting either to be redeemed (or be redeemable at all).

While we are going to the Moon, that was a big moment and thing in IV, and all the Fan Fest goodies are IV toys... I'm not sold on the idea there's going to be lots of IV parallels. Heavensward had lots of IV feelies too, but other than dragoons (OK, a dragoon) being prominent in the story I don't remember any big allusions to that game... and despite the game having more references and shout-outs than you can shake a stick at, the MSQ at least does maintain a large degree of originality.

[Bright-Flower]

Golbez was being mind controlled wasn't he? That's less a case of redeeming an antagonist so much as freeing a pawn being controlled by the actual villain.

She's not pureblooded garlean, but Fordoloa seems to be heading in that direction if she isn't killed off in the near future. We also have Gaius' redemption, though we didn't really play a part in said redemption, it all happened off screen between us beating him and his reappearance.

[Erendis]

This largely depends on who is used as a sacrifice to get there, but it would be amazing if we somehow landed in a Zenos redemption arc.

I'd rather we kill him in the first dungeon, or better yet, have Fandaniel get him killed instead so that we never need to see him ever again.