Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.5 (Part 1)

Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I... didn't see him as abandoning them... at all. The whole point is he was the only person who could control the Crystal Tower, and the CT was the centerpiece of their plan. By leaving his timeline he was saving the past (and they only thought theoretically that it would create an alternate timeline, they legitimately didn't know) as a last-ditch attempt to avert a Calamity; and the plan involved his DEATH, even the original plan.

Correct me if i’m wrong, but isn’t that something people use against the ascians/the ancients? Trying to fix the past and bring back their loved ones instead of just living in the present? The game pushes the notion of forget the past and instead try to strive toward a better tomorrow, so shouldn’t have Graha just tried to work in that current timeline to live for a better tomorrow instead of changing the past and the timeline? Just going based off what kind of message they’ve been pushing this expansion with the future, i find it odd it’s seen as a heroic thing when he does it but in the antagonists case it’s bad.In the short story they even say that some people disagreed with Cid’s plan because he was forsaking them, and he can’t even deny that.

Funny thing about G'raha Tia is, for all the accusations of trying to get close to us and only caring about being by the hero's side, he got there through no means of his own, every plan, every goal, everything he tried to do from the moment he work up, put himself in direct opposition of "Get to my WoL and be by their side who cares about others!" The man has been shot, stabbed, exhausted his aether several times, tried to heroically kill himself several times, become the firsts most expensive crystal statue and even when by dumb luck he made it back to the Source, alive and in possession of his memories of the first and 8th timeline, all that afforded him was being on the same world as us. He didn't ask to be a Scion, he was invited and even then had to be browbeaten into taking the position. Yet after all he's done, the man still doesn't even think he's good enough, when you climb the tower in 5.3 he proclaims that he's "no warrior" but can "hold his own" and even as the Exarch he just hid behind his cowl trying to think of what a "real" hero would do and act accordingly, even once back on the source he continues using magic even without the tower just so he can be of better use, the mans kind of the definition of selfless.
He puts it best. "Of course, I had the choice to turn my back on the lot of it. But in the end, it was no choice at all."

Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I mean, it's... very different. The Ascians' plan involves literal genocide to bring back people who were sacrificed, making a horrible cycle of sacrifices over and over to retain something that is lost. The "Ironworks of the Future"'s plan involves going back in time and preventing the Calamity from happening in the first place, making a better Future. It's even mentioned IN that side-story, once G'raha is sent to the past, that the leader wonders (too late, he thinks) if they'll be erased from existence if G'raha suceeded (will succeed, Time Travel Tense Problem). He refuses to believe that G'raha failed, so he concludes they must have created an alternate timeline and resolves to do the best with the Present they got.

Even if, in the discussions of the theory in Time Travel, G'raha's involvement would have deleted POSSIBLE lives (not existing ones, like the Ascians), they would have saved infinitely more by averting a Calamity in the first place.

Basically, the Ascians are "Sacrifice the Present and live in the Past forever because 12 people don't like the Present", the Ironworks' is "Go back to the Past and Give those people a fighting chance".

Except, it’s not just that they don’t like the present. The sundering made the world unstable. Not only that but in regards to your genocide comment.It wouldn’t be a cycle of sacrifices. It would be one set of sacrifices to rejoin the worlds and bring back their loved ones. Also in regards to saving lives, that’s something the rejoinings would do in the long run anyways. Comparing how many lives are lost due to the sundering and mortal bodies dying off from illness and age, whereas the ancients lived far far longer and didn’t seem to be affected by illness, it would outweigh the loss eventually than just letting the cycle of the death caused from the sundering continue. It would be a better future.

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except, it’s not just that they don’t like the present. The sundering made the world unstable. Not only that but in regards to your genocide comment.It wouldn’t be a cycle of sacrifices. It would be one set of sacrifices to rejoin the worlds and bring back their loved ones. Also in regards to saving lives, that’s something the rejoinings would do in the long run anyways. Comparing how many lives are lost due to the sundering and mortal bodies dying off from illness and age, whereas the ancients lived far far longer and didn’t seem to be affected by illness, it would outweigh the loss eventually than just letting the cycle of the death caused from the sundering continue. It would be a better future.

But the world was unstable before the sundering as well. "The fabric of our star began to fray" is the second line line heard in the Amaurot dungeon and summoning Zodiark to rewrite the rules was a Hail Mary. The fact is, we don't know enough about the pre-sundered world to really speak to how much better it was. Were all the races the same? Were they all functionally immortal? What about those people alive now that were never Amaurotines and didn't feel that sense of profound loss when exposed to the star shower? What we saw was a sliver of a whole world that we're just beginning to get glimpses of so unless we get more information the ethics of the Rejoining are going to come down to one's feelings on the actions of the post sundering Ascians.

We do know that Zodiark would require additional sacrifices to bring back those who made the initial sacrifice. We know that there were Amaurotines who felt that enough had been sacrificed and to sacrifice new life was unethical. We know that Zodiark was a reprieve, not a long term solution, from the Sound. We know that the majority of those in Amaurot supported the Convocation, but you're also looking at immortals who were facing the possibility of true death for the first time.

For all we know if the rejoining were to happen than we'd be looking at the end of Amaurot all over again since Zodiark wasn't a true solution to whatever was happening. At the end of the day, we just don't have a full enough picture of what happened yet.

Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Funny thing about G'raha Tia is, for all the accusations of trying to get close to us and only caring about being by the hero's side, he got there through no means of his own, every plan, every goal, everything he tried to do from the moment he work up, put himself in direct opposition of "Get to my WoL and be by their side who cares about others!" The man has been shot, stabbed, exhausted his aether several times, tried to heroically kill himself several times, become the firsts most expensive crystal statue and even when by dumb luck he made it back to the Source, alive and in possession of his memories of the first and 8th timeline, all that afforded him was being on the same world as us. He didn't ask to be a Scion, he was invited and even then had to be browbeaten into taking the position. Yet after all he's done, the man still doesn't even think he's good enough, when you climb the tower in 5.3 he proclaims that he's "no warrior" but can "hold his own" and even as the Exarch he just hid behind his cowl trying to think of what a "real" hero would do and act accordingly, even once back on the source he continues using magic even without the tower just so he can be of better use, the mans kind of the definition of selfless.
He puts it best. "Of course, I had the choice to turn my back on the lot of it. But in the end, it was no choice at all."

Honestly, i could get behind this 100% if it wasn’t for the fact his entire arc is build around plot armor and plot holes(i know i’m repeating myself) but in a story with very specific fluidity, having many moments like that centered around one character is just jarring to me. If they had made it where he didn’t have the plot armor he does and he didn’t cause so many plot holes, i’d be a bit more understanding. But the truth is he feels like the very epitome of catering to the community and giving them what they want without taking the writing into consideration. That’s my main problem with him.

Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I'll put it in the simplest terms possible

"How many people will your plan kill?"
Ascians: "All of them? That's kind of the point. I mean, we don't even really consider them people."
Ironworks: "I mean, ideally? None. In fact, given that the plan is saving everyone, the only true 'casualties' would be theoretically new souls born after the Calamity in case we change the Past and that eliminates the Future." (Which is a time paradox and I'm glad they went the "diverging timeline" route instead).

The short story you yourself mentioned deals about how Cid's plan started as: "Go back in time and prevent the Calamity", which made most people peace out. When the plan changed to "Go back in time and save the WoL" literally everyone rushed in to help. The Namazu, the Sky Pirates, the Four Lords, friggin' Hraesvelgr swoops in to help while being all tsundere about it. (Fun thing: Given that Seigetsu the Enlightened claims the TRUE timeline is the one where the WoL lives, it gives an extra incentive to the Ironworks' plan).


(Ok, not TRUE timeline, necessarily, but certainly A timeline where the WoL survives and the world is saved.)

Also, uhhh... what? with the "Sundering made the world unstable" thing... because... uh... the thing was "End Days made the world unstable, Convocation creates Zodiark by sacrificing half their people. Convocation decides they will sacrifice all the newborn life to Zodiark. Another Faction doesn't like that plan and creates Hydaelin. SOMETHING happens and then Hydaelin Sunders Zodiark and the world (we don't know if it was willingly or accidentally), Ascians plan to destroy each one of those worlds to bring back Zodiark AND THEN go back to original plan of killing everyone to bring back the Ancients."

The sundering did make the world unstable, the lore devs themselves have stated that in an interview. They paint it and the sundering as very bad things specifically. Again though, yes they decided to go save the wol by meddling with the past without knowing if they’re all going to get erased or not or what any of the repercussions are. Yet they then push the message of people shouldn’t mess with the past and should instead work with what they have. So it kind of contradicts itself in the grand scheme of thingsThe diverging timeline is honestly just plot convenience but i digress.